Madonna and I had met many times over the years, but we had never actually had a conversation. It took this interview to bring us together ā she as icon, I as inquisitor of icon [after all, I have already distinguished myself as friend of icon, relative of icon and ex-wife of icon]. I had never done an interview before, and I donāt know that I will again. For me, this has all the makings of a waterloo.
The first of the two sessions for this interview took place in the restaurant of the Four Seasons Hotel in Los Angeles. Madonna wore gold lame; I probably wore black. The last session took place in the offices of her manager, Freddy DeMann. Madonna wore a negligee; I probably wore black.
I was late for that first meeting because a friend who had AIDS and who was staying with me had suddenly developed a fever. I called Madonna to say I was on my way. āYouāre late,ā she informed me. I explained about my friend. āWell, okay, thatās a good excuse,ā she said.
By the time of our final meeting the following week, my friend had died. He had been extremely courageous, fighting an unbelievable battle. I relate this because it factored somehow into our meetings, making them even more bizarre and certainly changing the tone of our conversation from time to time.
Madonna has no equal at getting attention. She often seems to behave like someone who has been under severe restraint and can now say and do whatever she likes without fear of reprisal. She delights in being challenged, in telling more than she had planned, in going further than she had intended.
And judging from her new film Truth Or Dare, there is no ātoo farā for Madonna. She has a quality that Iāve always enjoyed in some people, mainly public ones: She will answer any question because she is genuinely interested in her own reply.
A conversation or an interview, then, can become an oppurtunity for self-discovery, or just discovery. Itās a hearty mix of self-consciousness and self-confidence. Itās a type of courage, a free fall into the perplexing public now.
I had heard a rumor that Norman Mailer was the first choice to do this interview but that it didnāt work out. Iām sure he would have cost more than I. No doubt that Norman on Madonna would have been a historic piece. But this time around, history was not in the budget. Unfortunately or not, I was. So a lot of money was saved, and history was not made. Or made, at least, of cruder material. Discount history, at those low, low, no-Mailer prices.
Carrie: We have a lot of things in common. We go to the same shrink.
Madonna Yeah, everything I do is measured by what I think her reaction will be.
Carrie: The choice is to be either her worst patient or her best patient, but to be distinct somehow.
Madonna Iām so worried about impressing her ā not impressing her, but being good ā that when I know Iām fucking up.
Carrie: She becomes the superego mommy conscience.
Madonna Absolutely. And so far sheās disapproved of everything Iāve done since Iāve started seeing her. Thatās why I havenāt gone lately.
Carrie: Weāve also been married and divorced.
Madonna How many years were you and Paul [Simon] married?
Carrie: We did a six-year stint on ānot marriedā, and then suddenly it was āLetās fix this relationshipā, or āWe might as well be marriedā. Then we were married for two years, and it was very on again, off again, as it was for the whole relationship over thirteen years.
Madonna So nothing changed after you and Paul got married?
Carrie: It got worse because I was supposed to get better. Now I was supposed to be a better wife.
Madonna But you werenāt.
Carrie: No.
Madonna We also both got married on August 16th.
Carrie: The day Elvis died.
Madonna Is that why you got married on the sixteenth?
Carrie: No. I donāt remember why. Why did you? Because Elvis died? No, I know it was because thatās your birthday, and his [Sean Pennās] is the next day. Do you still speak to him?
Madonna I have been speaking to him recently. You know how it is. First itās like anything bad you can say comes out.
Carrie: Iāve never heard you slam him.
Madonna No, Iāve never slammed him publicly. But I went through a hostile period. My heart was really broken. You can be a bitch until your heartās broken, and when your heartās broken, youāre a superbitch about everything except that. You guard that closely. So, no, I never really slandered him. And then we went through a period where I never would have known I was even married to the guy. It was like that part of my life did not exist. Four years. The first year was good ā sort of.
Carrie: But you werenāt together that long before you got married.
Madonna Seven months. It was really a romantic thing. We were madly in love with each other, and we decided quite soon after we started seeing each other that were going to get married ā and then we got married. He didnāt get a tattoo on his arm.
Carrie: You werenāt like Cher and Josh [Donen]?
Madonna Or Winona and Johnny? Actually, Sean did get a tattoo but not until after we were married. Itās my nickname on his toe. So, none of his girlfriends can see it unless theyāre really inspecting him.
Carrie: Which I should think they would.
Madonna Yeah, at this point. Itās Daisy.
Carrie: Your nickname is Daisy?
Madonna It was when I was with him. No one calls me Daisy now. Now itās Dita, from Dita Parlo, an actress from the Thirties. She did a lot of silent movies.
Carrie: And who gave you this one?
Madonna Actually I gave it to myself., but everyone thought it was very fitting, so it just stuck. You know how you have to pick names when you stay in hotels. After Daisy there was Lulu.
Carrie: Why were you named Daisy? For Daisy Buchanan, Daisy Miller?
Madonna Daisy Miller. There are a lot of good Daisys.
Carrie: Mostly high strung.
Madonna Yeah. And then there was Lulu because I was worshiping Louise Brooks. My name was Lulu Smith.
Carrie: Why did you worship Luise Brooks?
Madonna Because she was hyperactive, she didnāt mince words, and she was a rebel ā at least from what Iāve read. I thought she was a fab girl.
Carrie: Who else do you like who doesnāt mince words?
Madonna Bette Davis. Oh, everybody I like is dead. The next name, while I was on tour for six months, was Kit Moresby from [the book] The Sheltering Sky. Sheās fairly high-strung but not exactly my personality.
Carrie: She was a lsbian and insane. Kit was based on the writer Jane Bowles.
Madonna So they say. Anyway, I loved the book, but after I saw the movie, I didnāt want to be Kit Moresby anymore, because it was so disapointing. I didnāt want people to think that I was Debra Winger.
Carrie: So weāre staying with Dita until further notice.
Madonna Until I find someone else to be enamored of.
Carrie: Someone from the past whoās dead. Dorothy Parker?
Madonna Sheās good, but I donāt like the name Dorothy.
Carrie: Dotty. She wore those little puffy dresses and was apparently a really mean drunk.
Madonna Well, you know what we have to say about mean drunks.
Carrie: What? Oh, thatās your ex.
Madonna Shhhh.
Carrie: Yeah, itās a really big secret. Nobody knows.
Madonna Okay, back to things we have in common. Let me ask you something: Did you fuck Warren?
Carrie: No.
Madonna You didnāt?
Carrie: Iām one of the few. I could have.
Madonna Okay, but we both made a movie with him, so we both could have fucked him.
Carrie: At the time I was seventeen and making āShampooā. He offered to relieve me of my huge burden of my virginity. Four times. That was the big offer. I decided against it. I decided for reality over anecdote.
Madonna Next, weāre both fag hags.
Carrie: I prefer āfag mollā.
Madonna Next, we both have a hostility toward men, which rears its ugly head often in our work.
Carrie: I guess so.
Madonna Iām not saying itās bad. I think itās good to work it out. Which leads me to the next common thing ā our work tend to be confessional and semi-autobiographical.
Carrie: But yours hasnāt been so autobiographical until lately. āTruth Or Dareā is wildly so.
Madonna I finally decided that it was okay. Thatās the most interesting thing to talk about. I couldnāt go on pretending that everything was peachy keen.
Carrie: They always say, āWrite about the truest thing you know.ā
Madonna Exactly. And another thing in common, last but not least ā mother complex.
Carrie: And probably father complex.
Madonna For different reasons.
Carrie: Well, you didnāt have a mother. How old were you when she died?
Madonna Five.
Carrie: And did you have a stepmother?
Madonna Yeah, my father remarried three years later. So thatās a lot we have in common. And ā we both have the same shrink.
Carrie: And also a lot of your humor is not dissimilar to something that I do. It is shock over wit. Iāve read interviews in which you say things like āLook how big his dick is!ā
Madonna Itās a kind of vulgarity.
Carrie: Itās funny to me that you do it, because sometimes it seems like you have the attention of the world and sometimes you behave as though you donāt. Itās like you havenāt caught up with the reality. It would be a very abstract reality to get behind.
Madonna Itās not something I sit around and think about. Itās rather unconscious. I just sort of naturally say things to shock, not necessarily to offend. Itās like pulling the tablecloth off the table to disarm everybody.
Carrie: You enjoy being controversial. That used to mean talking about things that were never talked about. Now, it seems controversy is just a diluted form of pornography or obscenity. Iām not suggesting that you do pornography, but you do obscenity.
Madonna You want to be more specific about that?
Carrie: You express yourself in crass language. Like the woman in your documentary that you say finger fucked you when you were schoolmates.
Madonna But thatās what really happened!
Carrie: Well, she denied it in the film. But you wanted to ask about that. Who is that girl?
Madonna She was a girl that I grew up with when I was little. She lives in North Carolina now; she moved there with her family. She recently had a baby and named it after me. I have spoken to her and written to her since then. To me, a lot of obscene things happen to people in their lives. I just didnāt happen to cut it out of my movie.
Carrie: I donāt think itās obscene, actually, itās personal. The language you use to talk about it can be obscene.
Madonna Yeah, but I ended up making a personal movie. To me it was like āWhere do I draw the line?ā Should I cut this out? If I cut out that, then why arenāt I cutting out this?
Carrie: And you have total say over what you can cut and what you canāt?
Madonna In the end, Alek [Keshishian], the director, has final cut, but we never disagree on anything.
Carrie: And he was there for how long?
Madonna He was there through the whole rehearsal period, which was a couple of months. He didnāt start filming until we got on the road. In total, he was with us for about seven months.
Carrie: So you were constantly being observed?
Madonna Absolutely.
Carrie: But you are constantly being observed anyway, so the experience was probably just heightened.
Madonna Yeah. I didnāt really know Alek that well. I was a bit wary of him in the beginning, and I didnāt set out to make such a personal movie. I wanted to document the show because I thought it was really theatrical and I wanted it to be a film. But before we even got on the road, I started developing a relationship with my dancers. I was so fascinated with them that I thought: āNo, I donāt want to make a movie about the show. Fuck the show. I want to make a movie about us, about our lifeā. I thought they were so amusing and inspiring.
Carrie: Why inspiring? Because they worked hard?
Madonna They were hard workers, extremely talented, and I didnāt think they were jaded. They hadnāt been on tour with other people and hadnāt traveled. They hadnāt been associated with ā I hate to say the word ā ācelebrityā. Everything was completely new to them.
Carrie: You could trade on their innocence a little bit.
Madonna Absolutely. And I could show them things and be a mother to them. Take care of them. Assuage my guilt for having so much money by taking them shopping at Chanel and buying them everything their hearts desired.
Carrie: That handles your guilt?
Madonna It makes me feel better for a while.
Carrie: Iāve always felt that the nice thing about having a lot of work is that you feel required and essential to the process. Does your work use you up well enough?
Madonna Yeah, I think it does. It has to, because I ultimately end up making my own work. I donāt sit around waiting for other people to give it to me. Iāve had to do this to ensure myself constant employment. I honestly donāt think I could just announce to Hollywood, āOkay, now I want to be an actress,ā and then wait for people to give me movies. I also couldnāt be just a recording artist who puts out a record once a year. I have to keep finding things for myself to do.
Carrie: Like producing films? What do you do? Do you option books, or have writers come in and pitch ideas?
Madonna Itās almost never ideas people pitch.
One film I want to do is the Frida Kahlo story, which I got interested in because I love her paintings. I started collecting her artwork, and all of a sudden everybody loved Frida.
One film I want to do is the Frida Kahlo story, which I got interested in because I love her paintings. I started collecting her artwork, and all of a sudden everybody loved Frida.
Carrie: Sheās one of the dead people you admire.
Madonna Absolutely. Iād never call myself Frida, though. Now I hear that there are a million people who are all doing Frida projects, but I donāt give a shit.
Carrie: Wasnāt she supposed to be an unattractive woman?
Madonna I donāt think so.
Carrie: Actually, I have a pin of her that looks like you.
Madonna In self-portrait she kind of over-exaggerated her facial hair. Her eyebrow didnāt actually meet together, but she painted them to meet together. And she had dark hair on her upper lip because she was Latin American. And she overemphasized that in her paintings, which made her masculine and hard looking. In later years she had health problems. She started taking some kind of medication like steroids and her facial hair got really thick. She had almost a beard; she had to shave practically.
Carrie: How do you shave practically?
Madonna You know what I mean. And Iām just starting to develop Martha Grahamās life story.
Carrie: So youāre doing a lot of women.
Madonna I couldnāt do any men.
Carrie: As a producer you could.
Madonna Thatās true, but Iām not interested in doing things that Iām not in. Although by the time one of these things comes along, maybe Iāll be too old for it, and then Iāll just direct it.
Carrie: You want to direct?
Madonna Definetly. After I made this documentary and having gone through the step-by-step process of making movies, definetly.
Carrie: Iād like to do it eventually too. At my height, Iād like to boss a group of men around. How tall are you?
Madonna Five four and a half.
Carrie: Iām five one and a half, and itās incredibly important to me. Except that I stoop, which is attractive. I have one of those dowagerās bumps; itās from reading when I was a kid. For some reason I donāt bring the book up, I bring my head down, like itās a feed bag. So I read like a horse.
Madonna Short people try harder.
Carrie: Iām compensating for it. What are you compensating for? Didnāt you think you were attractive?
Madonna When I was little absolutely not.
Carrie: So when did you?
Madonna When did I think I was attractive? When I started hearing it from my ballet teacher at about sixteen.
Carrie: But by then you had solidified the impression that you were not attractive.
Madonna I thought I was a dog from hell.
Carrie: You certainly carry yourself as though ā
Madonna Iām a dog from hell?
Carrie: No, quite the opposite. I remember when we were at Ron Silverās Seder together and I had the impression that you were in a documentary, waving. You looked like you were moving through warm, thick liquid. It was very slow and ā
Madonna Maybe itās because I was drunk.
Carrie: You were drunk? You get drunk in a very, very graceful way, then.
Madonna I was so out of my element there.
Carrie: Who wasnāt? Excuse me!
Madonna Ron was out of his mind.
Carrie: Screaming at his mother.
Madonna Iām not even Jewish. It was all very strange. So if I was moving like I was going through warm liquid, itās because I felt like I was.
Carrie: That was just my impression. I usually watch people and decide that theyāre just a lot more comfortable with how theyāre coming off than I am.
Madonna Did I look like I was comfortable?
Carrie: You always look like youāre comfortable. My impression of you is, armās length. Iāve always felt that you were abrupt toward me, not impolite but close to it. Youāre not an ingratiating personality.
Madonna With you?
Carrie: Itās actually gotten better over time, but youāve always been like [blas?] āHi, Carrie.ā
Madonna I know. I think you probably intimidated me.
Carrie: If so, then it seemed like you were working at intimidating me or removing me from the scene.
Madonna I do that all the time to people that Iām afraid of.
Carrie: In your documentary, you come across more girllike, whereas Iāve always experienced you as, I donāt know, a commando. I never understood why you felt the need to attack when youāve certainly won the battle, if not the war, in your mind.
Madonna Well, thatās all part of how Iām going to conquer the world: conquer my loneliness.
Carrie: But the impression I got from the movie was more girlish.
Madonna Yeah, because those are people who I really trusted and I spent a lot of time with, so it was very easy for me to be that way.
Carrie: I saw you with them when I went backstage after I saw your show with Penny Marshall. We stood where the short people stand ā sort of in the corner.
Madonna Thatās the funny thing about you in my life, Carrie. I see you in a lot of places, and you know a lot of people that I know, but for some reason I always feel like whenever I see you, I see you unexpectedly. In other words, no one ever tells me that youāre coming or theyāre bringing you. So I feel if I knew, then I would be ready.
Carrie: I like the idea of preparing for me, like getting cookbooks or something.
Madonna Exactly. But I always see you and go, āOh!ā You seem to always kind of be ā
Carrie: Around.
Madonna Youāre on the periphery, but you have a very commanding personality. Maybe I see some of myself in you and I canāt deal with that.
Carrie: I offend you greatly. My line is that too many village idiots spoil the village. So if youāre in the room, itās your village, man, and you be the idiot. I would certainly take a backseat to your drive. Youāre what I would call a focus puller. You would have been a star in any incarnation.
Madonna You mean whatever I chose to do?
Carrie: But you could not have been chosen to do anything but what you do, could you? Did you ever want to do aynthing else?
Madonna No.
Carrie: Like John Lennon once told Paul [Simon] that he wanted to be a hairdresser. Yeah, right.
Madonna Well, I wanted to be a nun. I saw nuns as superstars.
Carrie: How could you have been a nun, given your attitude? Sister Mary Blowjob.
Madonna Sister Mary Fellatio. When I was growing up I went to a Catholic school, and the nuns, to me, were these superhuman, beautiful, fantastic people. To me, that was as close as I was going to get to celebrities. I thought they were really elegant. They wore these long gowns, they seemed to glide on the floor, everyone said they were married to Jesus. I thought they were superhuman and fabulous.
Carrie: So you grew up believing in God.
Madonna I still believe in God.
Carrie: Do you go to church?
Madonna I donāt like to visit God in a specific area. I like him to be everywhere.
Carrie: Here with us now.
Madonna Part of my air.
Carrie: Well, I like the idea. My doubt is heavier.
Madonna You probably werenāt raised with devoutly religious parent. It sort of rubs off on you.
Carrie: So your father is devoutly religious?
Madonna Absolutely.
Carrie: Does he go to church still?
Madonna Every Sunday.
Carrie: So your big thing is probably rebelling against the church. Iām going to figure you out yet.
Madonna Rebelling against the church and rebelling against the law decreed by my father, which were dictated through the church, I suppose.
Carrie: Do you believe in the afterlife?
Madonna Oh, I believe in everything. Thatās what Catholicism teaches you.
Carrie: So you go to confession? Iād love to be there.
Madonna I donāt know, but I did.
Carrie: You donāt even go to your shrink.
Madonna But mind you, when I did go to confession, I never told the priest what I thought Iād really done wrong. Iād make up other, smaller crimes. I thought, look, if I think Iāve done something wrong I have a private line to God, and Iāll just tell him in my bedroom.
Carrie: Do you still think that you have a private line to God? āHello, God, itās Madonna.ā No, not even Madonna, just say, āGod, itās me.ā
Madonna He knows my voice by now. I suppose I still pray.
Carrie: Well, you do before your shows, as we see in your film. I was so impressed. My brother is a born-again Christian, and though we fought over it, I always sort of envied his ability to suspend doubt.
Madonna Itās not that my doubt has been suspended, itās just that if somethingās really horrible and I say enough prayers, it will get better.
Carrie: I believe in God in strong air turbulence.
Madonna God seems to be there whenever things are really horrible. I do try to remind myself ā I know this sounds corny ā to be thankful for things when theyāre good, to be conscious of God.
Carrie: Even during your masturbation reenactments onstage?
Madonna Well, I donāt practice Catholicism now. The Catholic Church completely frowns on sex.
Carrie: Sex is okay for procreation.
Madonna But only for procreation and nor for enjoyment.
Carrie: Men have to have an orgasm in order to procreate, while we certainly donāt.
Madonna Right, thatās another thing ā Catholisicm is extremely sexist.
Carrie: Thank God.
Madonna For what?
Carrie: That we donāt have to have an orgasm in order to procreate.
Madonna Yeah, it sort of takes the pressure off of us.
Carrie: Who told you about sex, your father?
Madonna Who did tell me? My stepmother told me, and I remember I was horrified. I was ten and had just started my period. It was like āOkay, we better tell her.ā I remember my stepmother was in the kitchen, and I was washing the dishes. Every time she said the word penis, Iād turn the water on really hard so it would drown out what she said. I thought what she was telling me was horrifying, absolutely horrifying. And I hated the word. I just hated the whole thing.
Carrie: You certainly had a lot of brothers, so you must have seen theirs.
Madonna I did, and I thought they were disgusting.
Carrie: I saw my stepfatherās ā which was alarming ā from the back.
Madonna I never saw my father naked, and I really thought about that.
Carrie: So, what did your stepmother tell you?
Madonna I donāt remember the exact words, but just that a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina.
Carrie: You didnāt mind the word āvaginaā as much?
Madonna No, because I have one, so I can relate to it. I can barely relate to a dick now; I couldnāt at all then.
Carrie: Would you like to have one, every now and again?
Madonna Yeah, Iād like to know what it feels like to go in and out of somebody.
Carrie: Enter laughing.
Madonna Itās enough having my breasts as an appendage. When you jump up and down, or dance, or run, or whatever, theyāre there. I canāt imagine having a third thing hanging off my body. How dreadful!
Carrie: I think Iād like to wake up with an erection, even if it was just to not like it.
Madonna Yeah, Iād like to know what those things are like. Iād really like to pee standing up.
Carrie: The way to do that is to go to Africa. When you really have to go, you go in the bush. All you think is that a snake is going to come and bite something ā hopefully your ass.
Madonna Thatās what makes women extra vulnerable, that extra hole.
Carrie: But men are vulnerable because their genitals are hanging outside and could be lopped off. Ours have been lopped off.
Madonna Yeah, but we have a big orifice tha tinsects can crawl inside of.
Carrie: Have you had that experience?
Madonna No, thank God. But I think I probably had that fear when I was little. Whenever I was out in the woods, Iād sit on my hands to make sure that no bugs could permeate my underpants and go up inside my crotch.
Carrie: Theyād have to be pretty small bugs, I guess, depending on what kind of underwear you wore. If you were Catholic, you probably werenāt wearing lace at that point. You didnāt get into really elaborate underwear until recently, I imagine.
Madonna Not until I had money, really.
Carrie: How long have you had money? Eight years? I can figure it out because you were becoming famous when I was in the drug clinic. The videos used to be on. The drug addicts only wanted to watch āStar Trek,ā MTV or āThe Twilight Zone.ā You were part of my recovery, dancing and writhing around on the floor.
Madonna In my lace underwear.
Carrie: Speaking of that, how is your personal life now? Youāre not with that guy anymore.
Madonna Iām in a state of limbo. I find myself singing āMister Sandmanā every night before I go to bed.
Carrie: So, do you want me to set you up with some people?
Madonna Excellent.
Carrie: Is there something particular that youāre looking for at this juncture?
Madonna Intelligence would be good.
Carrie: As you get older, the pickings get slimmer, but the people sure donāt.
Madonna Iāll take a slightly overweight guy if heās smart.
Carrie: You can work him out.
Madonna Yeah, Iāll put him through a training regime. But what can you do to somebodyās brain? The die is cast.
Carrie: You donāt want to put him through Boyfriend University?
Madonna Oh, God, Iām so tired of that. Iām waiting for the perfect man.
Carrie: Thatās going to be tough. I always thought that I wanted to form an alliance rather than have a relationship ā find someone who you fancy as your counterpart. But a counterpart you go to war with, a counterpart you live with. So this is my new theory.
Madonna Iāve found counterparts, and Iāve worked with them.
Carrie: That almost killed me.
Madonna I have not found a complement.
Carrie: I would have thought your last boyfriend [model Tony Ward] was a complement.
Madonna He was a complement, but my insist that whoever complements me has his own identity. Meanwhile, letās skip right to the thing men really enjoy.
Carrie: Letās get to the real servicing thing. The quickest way to a manās heart is not through his stomach, itās through blow jobs.
Madonna I donāt like blow jobs.
Carrie: What do you like?
Madonna Getting head.
Carrie: For how long?
Madonna A day and a half [laughs].
Carrie: So why donāt you go out with women? I have the answer from my end.
Madonna Because after they give me head I want them to stick it inside of me.
Carrie: My answer is, because thereās no payoff.
Madonna Although, I guess a woman could strap on a dildo.
Carrie: Not really. Thereās no way to look at somebody who has strapped on a dildo and still think theyāre a human. Their dignity levels are frighteningly low.
Madonna Iāve never had one inside of me, but for a joke I asked a friend of mine to put one on. I just couldnāt stop laughing, so I donāt see how anyone could look at them with a straight face.
Carrie: Thatās what you can do at your level of power: Insist that someone strap on a dildo.
Madonna She was happy to do it.
Carrie: I bet! Good anecdote, bad reality. Mike Nichols once said that in relationships there should be a flower and a gardener, and there was the problem with you and Sean: Two flowers, no gardener, no nurture. Whoās going to mind the relationship?
Madonna Thatās exactly it. Whoās taking care of things? āWe both need a wifeā is what Sean was always saying. Weāre supposed to be the good wife.
Carrie: Breadwinner and breadmaker. When you win as much bread as you do, your bread-baking skills are going to go down and itās going to be harder to have a relationship. You have to figure out different compromises. Most men donāt want to compromise.
Madonna I have to figure out what I can do good for a guy that will take care of the fact that Iām not going to be doing the cooking.
Carrie: What can you do well? Iām desperate to hear that stuff. You are very attractive.
Madonna Thatās not doing something good.
Carrie: Well, for guys it is.
Madonna I would never be a financial burden to anyone [laughs]. I think I have a terrific sense of humor.
Carrie: You can joke about the things that theyāre not getting.
Madonna Exactly. Iām a good kisser. I know that.
Carrie: How do you know?
Madonna Because everyone says so. They donāt tell me I give good head, believe me, because I donāt give it.
Carrie: Ever?
Madonna They just tell me Iām a savage bitch. Who wants to choke? Thatās the bottom line. I contend that thatās part of the whole humiliation thing of men with women. Women cannot choke a guy.
Carrie: Some would argue.
Madonna Yeah, but still, it doesnāt go down into their throat and move their epiglottis around.
Carrie: So youāre a good kisser, you have a good sense of humor, and youāre not a financial burden. I think we have to find some more stuff.
Madonna Okay. I can carry my own suitcases.
Carrie: Are you supportive or nurturing?
Madonna I can be [laughs]. Iām tempted to say itās not my nature, but in the other hand I know that I am nurturing.
Carrie: Do you remember to ask how their day was?
Madonna I do, but only becauseā¦
Carrie: Youāve been tortured about not doing it.
Madonna Exactly. Iām getting better at that. Inevitably, what they did bores me.
Carrie: But you know how Iāve heard boredom described? Unenthusiastic hostility.
Madonna Thatās good.
Carrie: Do you want to have children?
Madonna Yeah.
Carrie: When?
Madonna As soon as I find Mr. Right. No, as soon as I just finish one more project!
Carrie: But I donāt think there is Mr. Right.
Madonna Okay, there isnāt Mr. Right.
Carrie: I think we have to modify that idea.
Madonna Expectations, absolutely.
Carrie: Especially when youāre such a piece of work. Youāll forgive me, but most men ā I was told this by a shrink ā will not want to take on a person in your position. He didnāt speak specifically of you but of people with large careers.
Madonna Iām sure of that. Thatās why so many young guys go after me. For me itās either older guys or younger guys. Older guys have already achieved success. They know who they are and generally they have money, one would hope, so theyāre not about to be that competitive with you. Theyāre in a certain place; theyāre in the twilight. And then there are the really younger ones, and nothing is expected of them yet.
Carrie: And thereās also that horrible thing when you go on dates after youāre thirty: Everyoneās already experienced a bad relationship, so youāre living in the blowout of that horror. You have to put up with the ghosts that both carry around. A younger guy doesnāt have as many ghosts, so you can scribble on their clean slates. You can be their first bad experience.
Madonna And I usually am.
Carrie: You can initiate them into the world of dysfunctional releationships.
Madonna I can walk away and say, āWell, thatāll really make a man out of him.ā
Carrie: Thatās right, theyāve had their Madonna experience. Thatās what wrecked me for dating guys after I turned twenty. I didnāt want to give anyone the oppurtunity to say they had fucked Princess Leia.
Madonna Laid Princess Leia.
Carrie: I think you should put an ad in some very, very high-level newspaper.
Madonna Like what, the Wall Street Journal?
Carrie: So how are you going to meet guys, go to bars?
Madonna No.
Carrie: The bummer about being a celebrity is that guys already know so much about you, which you wether have to undo or redo.
Madonna You can always say, āYou canāt believe anything youāve read.ā
Carrie: āIām really very sweet, and I only showed how to give a blow job in that movie because I was stressed out. Thatās not really how to do it, this is how I do it.ā
Madonna I guess it is strange. Itās kind of hard to date when youāre a celebrity, because you canāt walk unknown into a place and present yourself to somebody. Itās like everybody knows you already. Or hereās a good barometer: if you can watch my documentary and not be completely repulsed ā not repulsed, but shocked ā by me. That weeds them out.
Carrie: Thatās what I think you like to do. You like to test your parameters by exceeding them.
Madonna Thatās it, absolutely. You got it.
Carrie: I was going to ask if you were going to keep topping yourself in each of your videos. Could we expect one of your male dancers pull a tampon out of you with his teeth? But I donāt want to give you any ideas.
Madonna I donāt like blood, so you wonāt see that.
Carrie: It could be during off period, during ovulation.
Madonna I havenāt thought of that one. I donāt think I would, though, because I donāt think any of my dancers want to go anywhere near my pussy.
Carrie: They like to go near your breasts, though.
Madonna But thatās just a leftover thing with their moms.
Carrie: Youāve been photographed kissing women. Do they kiss the same as men?
Madonna Sometimes better. Iāve kissed girls that are horrible kissers. Iāve only kissed women, though.
Carrie: Well, youāve done the finger-fucking thing.
Madonna Okay, okay.
Carrie: But thatās it.
Madonna Let me put it this way: Iāve certainly had fantasies of fucking women, but Iām not a lesbian.
Carrie: You never took drugs?
Madonna Not really.
Carrie: You seem like youāre too in control. I like to regain control.
Madonna After youāve lost it? No, I never like to relinquish it. I went through a real short period where I very begrudgingly tried a few drugs.
Carrie: LSD ever?
Madonna I didnāt really enjoy it. I enjoyed ecstasy.
Carrie: Thereās a nickname for ecstasy: St. Joseph baby acid.
Madonna What I like about it was that it took my edge off. Iām a naturally suspicious person, and all of a sudden I didnāt see everyone as my enemy. I was really nice to people.
Carrie: So next time I want you to be really nice to me, Iāll put some ecstasy in your water.
Madonna It was enjoyable a couple of times. But I would feel violently ill after I did it. Iād be bedridden for days, so it wasnāt worth it. Good anecdote, bad reality.
Carrie: It sounds like itās a good anecdote, bad subsequent reality ā which I always used to feel was worth it.
Madonna I never really enjoyed coke because it made me more of a nervous wreck than I am.
Carrie: So, if you are a nervouse wreck, why wouldnāt you have gotten into painkillers?
Madonna They werenāt available. I didnāt know anybody who did them. I was trying drugs before I had money, and the peole I knew were only into ups. Everybody was into coke and crystal meth ā stuff that made you chew on the side of your mouth after you took it. If I needed anything, I needed something to calm me down ā and nobody seemed to have that.
Carrie: Then youāre lucky. Also youāre not addictive, just compulsive.
Madonna Iām definetly compulsive, but Iām compulsive about being in control.
Carrie: Iām addictive-compulsive, and I would have been a drug addict no matter what. The great philosophy of painkillers is that they make you feel better. Well, if you donāt feel bad already, thatās great; but if you do, thatās better still.
Madonna My treatment for feeling bad was not to make myself feel better but to flagellate myself in other ways.
Carrie: Thatās Catholic. Whatās your mother complex?
Madonna That I donāt have one, so Iām always looking for someone to fill up my hole ā no pun intended.
Carrie: So, then, youāre looking for someone to be your mother?
Madonna Yeah. Sheās gone, so Iāve turned my need on to the world and said, āOkay, I donāt have a mother to love me, Iām going to make the world love me.ā
Carrie: Now that youāve gotten the attention and youāve gotten a certain amount of respect ā
Madonna But itās not enough.
Carrie: No. Well, when is enough? David Mamet has a Pulitzer Prize and still doesnāt feel like a real writer. I mean, I donāt know anybody at any level who goes, āAhhh!ā
Madonna Thatās good to know. I wonder if there are people walking around who are happy with what theyāve accomplished? I donāt know anyone whoās happy.
Carrie: Not anybody in this business.
Madonna Which is full of unhappy peopleā¦
Carrie: And children of alcoholics. You donāt have that problem.
Madonna Thereās alcoholism in my family. My father wasnāt an alcoholic, but his parents were. And some of the people in my motherās family are alcoholics.
Carrie: Youāre lucky youāre aware of that because it makes it a lot easier to handle.
Madonna Absolutely. I guess some people would say that my fatherās behaviour was alcoholic behaviour.
Carrie: It would have to be if heās a child of one. Children of alcoholics donāt manifest the alcoholism, but they do the behaviour. Does your father give you advice.
Madonna No.
Carrie: Never? I bet he did. Youāre rebelling against somebody.
Madonna My father didnāt give me advice, he just gave orders.
Carrie: Well, thatās advice.
Madonna āDo this or else.ā
Carrie: Whatās the āor elseā?
Madonna I was always grounded or had to do chores or was forced to stay at home for the summer.
Carrie: No hitting?
Madonna My father never hit me. My stepmother slapped me a lot, and she gave me a bloody nose once. I was thrilled about it because my nose bled all over an outfit that she made me for Easter. I really hated it, and I didnāt want to wear it to church.
Carrie: How old were you?
Madonna About twelve. We had a very large family and my stepmother was trying to make end meet, so often she would go to Kmart and buy big bolts of fabric that were on sale. She would sew exact same McCallās dress pattern for me and my three sisters. I detested that ā looking like my sisters. I wanted to be my own person.
Carrie: Youāve succeded in that.
Madonna I know, I know. Anyway, she made us these horrible lime green dresses.
Carrie: It must have looked nice with blood on it.
Madonna What happened was that we got into the car to go to church and I was disgusted that I had to wear this lime green dress with white stripes on it. I had on white ankle socks with white shoes. I thought I looked hideous. I got into the front seat of the station wagon next to my stepmother. The car was completelly filled up with all my brothers and sisters. I mumbled something about this horrible ugly dress I was wearing, and my stepmother just went BAM! I always got nosebleeds when I was little and my nose bled very easily. Even though I was in agony, I couldnāt have been more thrilled. Not only did I not have to wear that dress, but I didnāt have to go to church. My nose wouldnāt stop bleeding, so everyone left and I got to stay home.
Carrie: So you were supposed to be a good little girl. Were you supposed to be a vigin when you got married?
Madonna Yes, and my stepmother told me I wasnāt allowed to wear tampons until I got married. Can you imagine? Whatās why my friend Moira had to teach me how to wear a tampon. Iām telling you, I put it in sideways and was walking around paralyzed one day. It pinched a nerve or something.
Carrie: And you were rebelling by putting it in at all.
Madonna Yes, but I wanted to go swimming. It was during the summer, and who can go swimming with a Kotex on?
Carrie: Probably someone.
Madonna Probably Mormons or something. No, you just donāt go swimming ā just like you donāt fuck when youāre Catholic if you donāt want to get pregnant. There are all these stupid rules.
Carrie: My favorite Polish joke is the one where all the Polish people have fifty dollars and they go to New York. Theyāre sent out to find something to do. One of them goes out and comes back later with a carton of Tampax. They go, āWhat is this?ā He says: āLook! You can go swimming, you can go horseback riding, you can go sky diving.ā
Madonna Thatās cute.
Carrie: When did you lose your virginity?
Madonna When I was fourteen.
Carrie: So you got into rebelling.
Madonna Right away.
Carrie: Did they know?
Madonna Nooo. Oh, no.
Carrie: And when they did find out that you had?
Madonna They didnāt.
Carrie: Theyāll find out through this article.
Madonna Iāve never really talked about sex with my father. My parents were virgins when they got married. My mother was very religious, too. I think my father realized I was having sex once I married Sean [Penn]. Before then I donāt think he did. I never brought any guys around because my parents lived in Michigan and I lived in New York at the time.
Carrie: When did you move away from home?
Madonna When I was seventeen. But I never brought anybody home. Oh, once I brought Jellybean [Benitez] home, but we had to sleep in separate bedrooms.
Carrie: Did you sneak?
Madonna No, because my fatherās bedroom was in between.
Carrie: In āTruth Or Dareā when your father came to the show, was that the first time he had seen you simulate masturbation and be so explicit about everything?
Madonna I donāt know if heās seen all the other things Iāve done. Iām sure when the nude pictures in Playboy and the album Like A Virgin came out he went through a period of extreme shock.
Carrie: Did he ever say anything?
Madonna No.
Carrie: Thatās nice ā I guess.
Madonna Iām not sure. I havenāt decided. When I go home, my father absolutely does not acknowledge that Iām famous, or a star, or a celebrity, or that Iāve made it in any way. He doesnāt talk about it so I can fit in and not feel scorn of my brothers and sisters. Iām not sure that I like that.
Carrie: That must be complicated if you go out to dinner.
Madonna I never go out to dinner when I go home.
Carrie: So you donāt want to make him confront your celebrity.
Madonna No, I would like it if he talked about it, actually, but he never does. Maybe I want him to recognize it so that finally Iāll have his approval.
Carrie: To not have his disapproval ā
Madonna Is better than nothing.
Carrie: But it would be nice to have a conversation with him about what you do. You would probably have to assume that ā given your upbringing ā he would object to it.
Madonna My fatherās not inceribly confrontial about things like that.
Carrie: He gave you loud advice. He gave you orders.
Madonna My father has had a lot of tragedies in his life. I have some very crazy brothers who really keep my father busy.
Carrie: So youāre a success story, despite the fact that some of what you do flies in the face of his religion.
Madonna Absolutely.
Carrie: At least youāre not in rehab.
Madonna Iām not in rehab, and heās not still supporting me.
Carrie: Is he still supporting them?
Madonna Well, if they could spend a couple of months out of rehab they could get jobs.
Carrie: How many of them are doing that?
Madonna There are two of them that sort of go in and out. They have problems. Oneās just an older version of the other.
Carrie: And one of them was in āTruth Or Dareā.
Madonna Yeah.
Carrie: Do you get along with him?
Madonna Yeah, I do.
Carrie: Has he seen the movie?
Madonna No, he hasnāt. I know heās looking forward to it because he really wants to be a star in his own right.
Carrie: A star at what?
Madonna Anything. Heās a real con artist. Heās got this great deep voice, so for a while he was a disc jockey for black radio stations. He thinks heās a black person, I think. Heās histerically funny.
Carrie: Itās the gallows humor. You better be funny if youāre going to be a big problem.
Madonna Oh, he is funny. That boy can make you laugh. Iād like to see him have a stable life.
Carrie: Do you get along with your brother Christopher?
Madonna I get along with him fabulously, famously.
Carrie: And he works.
Madonna Many of my brothers and sisters work. Itās just that Chrisopher really understands what happens to me in my life from day to day.
Carrie: Heās the only family member who has that experience.
Madonna Yeah.
Carrie: [My friend Julian died of AIDS on Saturday at 4:45 P.M. in Sherman Oaks Hospital, in Los Angeles. He had been staying with me for a month. Madonna and I resumed this interview on Tuesday evening. I described some of the particulars of his death to her off the record. I tend to joke about things that are awkward or painful to me. So if some of what follows seem offhand or flippant in any way, I apologize. Being with someone while they die is a very intense and inspiring process. It hardly seems like something to cover in a Madonna interview. After all, we were there to shed some light on a glaringly illuminated individual and to talk about her new film. Death is intimate. Real. Big Real. This interview worked out to be a kind of truth or death for me. But as they say, the truth will out, or āYeah, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I found myself humming Vogueā.]
Madonna I heard your friend died, and I canāt believe youād even want to do an interview today. I donāt want the gory details, but what happened? Was is sudden?
Carrie: Yeah, we went to the emergency room Friday morning, and he died Saturday. I got the āVanity Fairā with the story about you when I was at the hospital, so he saw your pictures. He wanted me to hold them up. He liked them very much.
Madonna Oh, that breaks my heart. How old was he?
Carrie: Thirty-one. Iād never seen anything like that.
Madonna Itās a very cruel, gruesome death.
Carrie: He was a real shtarker about it. āThis is so sillyā and āMy slippers are under the bedā were, I believe, his last complete phrases. He was delirious at the end.
Madonna Itās confusing to talk about other people dying.
Carrie: But when you see somebody doing it, theyāre very busy doing it ā so itās not as bad as you think. He was Catholic.
Madonna I didnāt have such a pleasant experience. It was the ugliest, most horrible thing Iāve ever seen. I was in the room with my best friend when he died. I was absolutely positively horrified. He didnāt have the same sense of humor your friend had. I wish he would have. It was very āWhy me?ā He felt persecuted to the end.
Carrie: Everybody has their own idea about death. Do you have any death thoughts that youād like to share with the group?
Madonna Death thoughts. Thatās funny because I was thinking about dying the other day. You get to preoccupied with thinking about being eternally youthful, but every once in a while a death thought comes upon you.
Carrie: Thatās what is so scary about being a woman in this business. Not only can you not age gracefully, you canāt age at all.
Madonna Yeah. The death thought came while I was sitting on my toilet peeing ā thatās where I have my most contemplative moments. I like sitting on the toilet, period ā number one or number two. I was thinking about dying. Iām obsessed with it because my mother died of breast cancer when she was thirty.
Carrie: So you check all that regularly.
Madonna Yes, I go to the mammogram vault on a regular basis. Itās the most horryfing thing in the world. You go in and you feel like youāre getting your death sentence. First off all itās painful because they smash your breats into this thing. Then you put a robe on and go into this room where everybody scatters because of the radiation. Youāre lying alone on this table and the radiation is coming in and youāre thinking, āWell, theyāre giving me the cancer while theyāre looking for cancer.ā You just feel really creepy. My mother was a radiation technologist ā I always thought maybe they didnāt make her wear lead aprons. Anyway, I turned thirty and didnāt die, so I felt really good about that.
Carrie: Where do you see yourself in ten years?
Madonna I donāt think Iāll be dead.
Carrie: But in terms of your carreer, wonāt you have to stop as sexual at a certain point before it becomes weird.
Madonna Why?
Carrie: Thatās the law. Not a forty-two.
Madonna Sexy in what way? Marlene Dietrich is still sexy.
Carrie: My father slept with her.
Madonna Really? I wish I had slept with her.
Carrie: With her?
Madonna Yeah, sheās gorgeous. She had a very masculine thing about her, but I think she maintained a sexual allure. You just do it in a different way. Iām absolutely not afraid of wether Iāll find work or not in ten years. What is going to be tougher for me, Iām sure, is just the emotional idea of being older.
Carrie: Marilyn Monroe died at thirty-six, before she had to deal with all that.
Madonna I think it would have been pretty tough on her.
Carrie: There arenāt that many women who were sex objects who have survived. There are a couple of them, but when you see them interviewed, they donāt look very good.
Madonna Why do you think that is? Is it just a state of mind?
Carrie: I think when youāre valued for something that you didnāt have much business in acquiring ā like your looks ā youāre more out of control. As your looks diminish with age, you feel your value is diminishing and you get afraid.
Madonna But do you think that Iām valued for my looks?
Carrie: Partly.
Madonna Because I have never considered myself a conventionally pretty person. I look at girls and go, āTheyāre perfect.ā I have to work at it.
Carrie: But your beauty is part of your impact ā like Marilyn and Jayne Mansfield. And thereās one whose name I canāt remember ā
Madonna Mamie Van Doren?
Carrie: Thatās the one. Sheās alive.
Madonna But they didnāt cultivate anything else.
Carrie: And you are creatively invloved in your career. Itās not simply your looks, although they help. You do get very invloved in keeping yourself attractive. But youāre not as self-destructive as Marilyn. She was very male indetified: She went from one male to the next and was constantly disappointed.
Madonna I know that feeling.
Carrie: Itās interesting that you indentify with Marilyn, because sheās somebody who didnāt survive the fire.
Madonna I identify with her to a certain extent, but then I have to draw the line. I mean, I donāt look at her and go, āOoh, her life is just like mine.ā No way.
Carrie: Thatās why I think itās better to focus on a part of your image that you have more control over ā which would be your songwriting or producing ā and get involved in a way that you donāt have to be young and beautiful forever.
Madonna You wonāt hear me disagreeing with you on that.
Carrie: What about your whole spanking thing? I donāt get that.
Madonna Itās a joke. I despise being spanked. I absolutely detest that. Itās play. I say I want to get spanked, but itās like āTry it and Iāll knock your fucking head off.ā Itās a joke!
Carrie: But I saw you on Arsenio and you said ā
Madonna I was just playing with Arsenio.
Carrie: This is a very important piece of news.
Madonna I certainly punish myself in lots of ways but not by having people hit me. I hate it. And if someone tries to spank me, like before sex or something ā
Carrie: But if kids hear some of that stuff and think itās cute, it could be misinterpreted.
Madonna I suppose so.
Carrie: You could be a little bit clearer about that, to my mind.
Madonna I thought it would be obvious ā because of my image as a person who wants to be domineering and take charge ā that there was no way I would actually want somebody to spank me.
Carrie: I didnāt get it or that stuff on the āExpress Yourselfā video with you in a dog collar.
Madonna But itās all the same thing. These are traditional roles that women play, and here I am doing them, but thatās not really what Iām doing.
Carrie: I thought perhaps you felt that you had so much control that you had some berserk fantasy having some of it removed.
Madonna I didnāt mean it that way. I think it was just my sick little sense of humor, or not so-little sense of humor. The spanking thing started because I believed that my character in Dick Tracy liked to get smacked around and thatās why she hung around with people like Al Pacinoās character. Warren [Beatty] asked me to write some songs, one of them the Hanky Panky song was about that. I say in the song āNothing like a good spanky,ā and in the middle I say, āOoh, my bottom hurts just thinking about it.ā When it came out everybody started asking, āDo you like to get spanked?ā and I said: āYeah. Yeah, I do.ā
Carrie: And on āNightlineā, you talked about putting a dog collar on yourself and all. I thought, āWell, why would somebody in her position choose to put a collar on herself?ā So I thought maybe it was a way of punish yourself for all the rewards you had gotten.
Madonna It is, Iām sure. I canāt entirely explain it. Itās just an image I thought was powerful, and I chose to use it in my video. It showed an extreme. First you see me chained to a bed, then you see me on top of a stairway with these workinh men below, and Iām wearing a suit and grabbing my crotch. Extreme images of women: One is in charge, in control, dominating; the other is chained to a bed, taking care of the procreation responsibilities.
Carrie: Youāre more known through your videos and songs, so perhaps your sense of humor isnāt as obvious to people.
Madonna It will be soon, though.
Carrie: If you do a lot of press and people understand that youāre kidding ā
Madonna Then the real me will be revealed.
Carrie: I donāt think thereās any such thing.
Madonna So, Iām being sarcastic.
Carrie: That would be a good way for someone to woo you?
Madonna If I knew, Iād call them right away and tell them.
Carrie: No, I think you should leave that to me. I think it would be better if I told them and they approached you. It would be bad if you just thought they were following your instructions.
Madonna I like letters.
Carrie: So, youād like to go out with a writer.
Madonna Oh, God, I would love to.
Carrie: Iām telling you, I can set you up with one! He has tattoos and a brain.
Madonna Thatās worth at least a hard-on.
Carrie: And what else?
Madonna I like it if I havenāt seen somebody in a while and he remembers my favorite thing to eat or my favorite flower.
Carrie: You like someone to be considerate.
Madonna Yeah. A considerate good writer.
Carrie: Good-looking is not essential? It seems to have been a factor. The last one was a model.
Madonna Yeah, but you havenāt seen everybody Iāve gone out with.
Carrie: How do you know? Do you think Iām too busy to follow you around and know all about your life?
Madonna I suppose looks are important, but Iāve certainly found myself attracted to men who arenāt conventionally attractive. Painters are good, too. There are two things that I canāt do and wish I could ā write and paint.
Carrie: But you do write.
Madonna I know, but to sit down and write a novel is mond-boggling to me. I just canāt imagine sitting down and applying yourself to that much paper. How do you sit still for so long? My attention span isnāt that long.
Carrie: I read you write songs in fifteen minutes.
Madonna Yeah, but pop songs are really easy to write. Michael Jacksonās been working on his album for something like three years. I canāt imagine doing that! Iād go insane.
Carrie: Has anyone written a song about you?
Madonna Pat Leonard, this guy that I write music with, wrote a song about me called āQueen Of Mysery.ā
Carrie: Are you like that? Do you get depressed?
Madonna I have been. I write all my sad songs with Pat.
Carrie: What are your sad songs?
Madonna You want me to name all of them?
Carrie: No, just a smattering?
Madonna āLive To Tellā, āOh Fatherā, āPromise To Tryā.
Carrie: Do you play any instrument?
Madonna No. When I was really little I played piano and then decided that I didnāt want to. Then in New York, after I decided that dancing was a big waste of time as a career, I asked this guy to teach me how to play the guitar. I started writing immediately. For a couple of years I practiced the guitar two hours a day and the drums four hours a day. But as I got more involved in the things you have to do to make records and videos and go on tour. I just stopped playing. On my first album, I wrote almost every song myself. Then I guess I got lazy.
Carrie: I would hardly characterize you as lazy. Whatās the song youāre proudest of?
Madonna Thatās like saying which child I like best in my large family. There are different things that are great about each one. There are certainly plenty that I donāt really give a shit about. I donāt like listening to my music. I listen to all those weird tapes you get at Bodhi Tree [a New Age bookstore in Los Angeles]. Chimes. My masseuse has one amazing tape that just keep playing pachelbelās Canon over and over.
Carrie: Do you write when youāre upset?
Madonna Yeah, a lot. Words just come spewing forth. Iāve written my best things when Iām upset, but then who hasnāt? Whatās the point of sitting down and notating your happiness?
Carrie: No, generally you donāt have that kind of concentration. And itās not that interesting unless itās psychotic. When itās a maniac high you can have a skewed sensibility. Someone told me itās called dysphoria ā elation with a limit. You become aware of the limit, and youāre notating it before it ends.
Madonna Iāve never done that, I donāt think. No, I have written songs in that state.
Carrie: Cherish.
Madonna Yeah, in a super-hyper-positive state of mind that I knew was not going to last.
Carrie: Do you like gifts? Whatās the best gift youāve ever gotten?
Madonna Letters. And Iāve gotten some really beautiful jewelry from Warren. He has excellent taste in jewelry: neckhlaces, rings, earrings, bracelets, pins, beautiful brooches ā antique stuff. Itās rare that a guy will give you really good jewelry. I was shocked, pleasantly. Most people just go out and use their own bad taste.
Carrie: Do you get gifts for men?
Madonna Oh, yeah. My gift giving comes in the first few weeks of dating.
Carrie: Thatās when you give head.
Madonna Theyāre not getting head from me, theyāre getting gifts from Maxfield.
Carrie: I want to go back to your perfect date. This is your version of an ad. Whatās the ideal? We know about letters and good memory.
Madonna Gotta smell good.
Carrie: Their own body smell or do you like a particular after-shave?
Madonna Iām not crazy about colognes. Some people just smell good, and it doesnāt have anyhting to do with something they put on. Smell good and be clean, those are really important things. Another essential thing about a guy is that heās got to be able to pay his own rent. Not the rent on my house, just his own rent.
Carrie: Whatās a good date ā movies, dinner?
Madonna Both. Dinner is really good.
Carrie: What kind of restaurant?
Madonna Where they have good margaritas.
Carrie: So a Mexican restaurant?
Madonna No, I hate Mexican food. But Muse [in L.A.] has great margaritas. the lighting is really good there; you canāt see the zits that I always have.
Carrie: I donāt see them.
Madonna Iām dying to meet someone who knows more than me. I keep meeting guys who know less.
Carrie: Itās not going to be easy to find somebody who knows more than you and is more powerful. In every situation you have to compromise. What are you willing to compromise?
Madonna Okay, he doesnāt have to have a good memory.
Carrie: So, you rather go for smarter.
Madonna Smarter over sweeter. When you have a conversation and then a week later you say, āYou said you were going to do this,ā and the other person says, āI never said thatā ā that drives me crazy.
Carrie: Do you get to say everything that you want to say when you get in those arguments?
Madonna Yes, because I always go: āShut up! Just shut up! Let me say what I have to say!ā And they shut up.
Carrie: I let mine build up, and then I come out with this hairball of observation.
Madonna And itās so forceful that whoever is standing in the room has to shut up. I save up lines. I save up what I consider to be really incredible things to say to somebody to really wound them.
Carrie: And does it?
Madonna Yeah.
Carrie: Do you imagine getting married again like you got married before?
Madonna No, Carrie, no, no. You donāt make those kind of mistakes twice.
Carrie: So, next time youāll just do it off to one side, like a salad?
Madonna Yeah, itāll be a side-dish kind of thing.
Carrie: Just do it and get it over with, and itāll be like something that just happened. āOh, by the way ā I got married.ā
Madonna No, I donāt want to do it like that. I wouldnāt want to treat it like coleslaw or anything. I guess Iād just like to think of it as spa cusine versus full twelve-course meal.
Carrie: Would you have to be with someone who you couldnāt ask for a prenuptial agreement?
Madonna No, Iād have to be with somebody who I could ask for one. Theyād have to be not insulted if I asked for one ā bottom line.
Carrie: So you just have to have someone who is really confident.
Madonna Confident, smells good, smart.
Carrie: Is that the order?
Madonna No. Smart, confident, smells good, sense of humor, likes to write letters, likes antique jewelry. The three toppers are smart, smells good, confident.
Carrie: Sense of humor ā canāt take that out.
Madonna Carrie, do you have anyhting really important left to ask me?
Carrie: No, I think weāve covered it. We talked about your movie.
Madonna I explained the spanking issue.
Carrie: That was very good for me.
Madonna We discussed growing old, having children, getting married and what Iām going to do with my life.
Carrie: And breast cancer and skin.
Madonna What else is there?
Carrie: We just have to get that information for the blind date. Muse, margaritas, letters. I think weāre done.
Ā© Rolling Stone Magazine
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