May 7, 1991 // Madonna admits to her bisexuality in a controversial 2-part interview with The Advocate magazine. [Read Interview Here]
MADONNA INTERVIEW : THE ADVOCATE (MAY 7 1991)
In her eight-year rise from disco-pop contender to international multimedia legend, Madonna has never failed to incite fascination and controversy with one hit record, one sensational video, one mediocre movie after another. One of the first pop stars made by and for MTV, she titillated viewers with her bare belly button and her boy-toy belt buckle. She also made the word āvirginā not only speakable but unavoidable in teen-girl parlance.
She challenged feminists by putting the choice back in pro-choice with her song about teenage motherhood, āPapa Donāt Preachā ā and then in concert used the song to chide the Pope for opposing birth control. Her āLike a Prayerā video, in which she seduces a black saint and ends up with dripping stigmata, scared Pepsi into canceling the commercial it had paid her $5 million to do.
She endured a stormy, highly publicized marriage to and divorce from photophobic actor Sean Penn. Then her public escapades with comedian Sandra Bernhard courted rumors that the two were having a lesbian affair. During her Blond Ambition tour, she was threatened with arrest in Toronto for masturbating onstage. When MTV banned her āJustify My Loveā video, depicting a pansexual orgy in a Paris hotel room, she went on ABCās Nightline to well, justify her love of provocation.
You aināt seen nothinā, though, until youāve seen Truth or Dare, her documentary film. Salacious tidbits from the film, shot during the Blond Ambition tour, became conversation pieces weeks in advance of its opening: Hereās Madonna reminiscing about the childhood girlfriend who finger-f*cked her, thereās Madonna bluntly asking one of her dancers if heās ever taken it up the ass and then watching open-mouthed while two others act our her dare to tongue-kiss each other.
Not the least of the filmās groundbreaking aspects is its perspective on gay culture. Itās hard to think of another film about a nongay subject in which the presence of gay people is not only normal and accepted but treasured. Of her seven dancers, all are ethnic minorities, and all but one are gay. Madonna clearly identifies with them, camping and partying and flirting with them freely. The film shows her lead dancers, Jose Guitierez and Luis Camacho, communing with Queer Nation at a gay pride march in New York; the film also records the tension that arises from the homophobia of straight dancer Oliver Crumes. But Madonnaās attitude toward her supporting cast ā not to mention her then-lover Warren Beatty, manager Freddy DeMann, and her backstage crew ā is less than saintly. She manages to be generous and condescending, nurturing and narcissistic in the same breath.
Hollywood doesnāt really get Madonna. She doesnāt fit any past models of Hollywood stardom. She belongs to the first generation of video babies, the generation of what New Yorker writer George W. S. Trow calls āthe cold child,ā formed by the false cheerfulness, the pseudo-intimacy, the corrupt smiles of television. The sensibility is scattershot and postliterate. It combines an infinitesimal attention span with an instantaneous absorption of visual information; a picture is worth a thousand books.
Madonnaās attention span and her ability to withstand barrages of computer-age information make her uniquely unafraid of contradiction. In fact, in true postmodern fashion, she is drawn to complexity, contradiction, and ambiguity over harmony, clarity, and simplicity. And she embraces a fragmented wardrobe of personas (Bitch, Little Girl, Vulnerable Love-Seeker) rather than a false, integrated personality. Truth or Dare is the first movie to capture this quality of Madonnaās, and until Hollywood understands it, her future in movies will probably remain uncertain.
The gay world, of course, gets Madonna in a big way. Among Madonnaholics, the intensity of engagement is sometimes breathtaking. Performance artist Karen Finley has even turned her name into an adjective. āAll women,ā says Finley, āShould be as Madonna as possible.ā
The love affair is mutual. āEffeminate men intrigue me more than anything in the world,ā she told Vanity Fair. āI see them as alter egos.ā
She has lost many gay friends to AIDS, including her first dance teacher Christopher Flynn, former roommate Martin Burgoyne, artist Keith Haring, and filmmaker Howard Brookner. She has done numerous AIDS fund-raisers (the Hollywood premier of Truth or Dare will benefit AIDS Project Los Angeles, and the New York premiere will benefit the American Foundation for AIDS Research).
She has long been gay-positive both privately (she helped bankroll the Los Angeles run of drag artist John Eppersonās I Could Go on Lip-synching!) and publicly (she received one of this yearās Media Awards April 21 from the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation). And she had no qualms about being interviewed for The Advocate.
The interview took place at her house in the Hollywood Hills section of Los Angeles one afternoon in March between rehearsals for her appearance on the Academy Awards show. Madonna lives at the end of a twisty-turny road in the Hollywood Hills. Itās not the baronial estate one might expect to house a woman who Forbes estimates has earned $125 million in the last five years. A friend accurately describes it as the L.A. equivalent of an apartment on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. It has the provisional feel of many Hollywood starsā homes. Yes, thereās the patio, the pool, the spectacular view. But the interior seems art-directed rather than designed for living. White orchids float in crystal bowls throughout the house. Massive square columns separate a hallway work space from the living room, whose heavy, brocade-covered furniture makes the room feel stiff and uncomfortable, a place for Sunday behavior.
No wonder everybody feels more relaxed hanging out in the kitchen, with its library-style magazine rack, dining table with banquette, and never-empty bowl of popcorn. Madonnaās brother Anthony, a friendly guy with long hair and two pierced ears, is visiting for a couple of weeks from New York, where he works in film production. Her assistant Melissa Crow (also known as āBaby Mā) makes coffee and works the phones, while her publicist, Warner Bros. Recordsā Liz Beth Rosenberg (whoās been called āthe most quoted woman in Americaā), crochets and pores over the fruits of the latest photo session. With evident reluctance Madonna abandons this cozy nest for the formality of the living room and the interview.
In person Madonna exudes less glamour than one might expect of someone so careful about her image. Today her hair is in disarray ā an inch and a half of dark roots showing underneath a blond dye job turning sickly yellow ā though her makeup is perfect. Sheās wearing a black lace bodysuit with something else black pulled over it and lots of jewelry.
Later in the day, at a screening of Truth or Dare attended by āthe suitsā (agents, studio heads, record company executives, and a few celebs and colleagues), Madonna shows up in a hideous calf-length black smock dress and black boots that make her look like a little girl playing dress-up. It maybe that sheās indulging in the latest fashion trend, the one Allure magazine calls āDeliberately Dowdy.ā Or perhaps sheās simply pregnant with her next look. In any case, her appearance reflects the restlessness and surprising fragility that runs through the interview.
She seats herself in front of the plate-glass window on the oddest piece of furniture in the room, a bench with no back. Itās designed so that anyone on the sofa can see the patio, the pool, and the spectacular view. But it also allows her to lie down and gaze at the best thing in the room, a lush Langlois panting of Diana, Cupid, and Endymion (all nude) thatās mounted on the ceiling.
Although she made no effort to hide her lack of enthusiasm to talk to the press, she was a dream to interview. She never declared anything āoff-the-recordā (although she did call the next morning requesting that The Advocate not print the astonishing title of the song sheās supposed to be writing with Michael Jackson). She answered every question without hesitation. And in true Madonna fashion, what she said was oftenā¦well, see for yourself.
Advocate: What do you see when you look at the movie Truth or Dare? Describe that woman.
Madonna: I see a huge paradox in me ā the intense need to be loved and the search for approval juxtaposed with the need to nurture other people, to be the mother I never had. I didnāt realize how matriarchal I am, how maternal I am, until I watched this movie.
Advocate: Did you have other documentary films in mind as models?
Madonna: No. Originally we were going to do a concert film, because I was really proud of what Iād done on the stage, and I thought, I wish I could capture this on film. But as I started working with the people, what really interested me were the relationships that were developing between me and the dancers and everybody around. We watched the footage of all the backstage stuff in Japan when I started the tour, and I said, āI couldnāt give a shit about the live show. This is life! This is what I want to document.ā
Advocate: Who had bigger balls in making this movie, you or Alek Keshishian [director of Truth or Dare]?
Madonna: He certainly had the balls to stand up to me, which is fairly difficult. I said, āYou have to know that Iām going to want to throw you out of the room. You have to be willing to say no.ā And he did. That requires fairly large balls. But in the end he can hide behind the camera. I canāt My life is splayed out for the world to see. I have to take credit for having the larger balls in this situation.
Advocate: Werenāt some things staged or hyped-up for the movie?
Madonna: Yes, they were. For instance, we did say, āOK, Pedro Almodovar is going to throw this party for me. Weāre going to mike the tables and film all this.ā I canāt exactly say āstaged,ā because I contend that I would have done the same thing whether the camera was there or not.
Advocate: Is there anything you cut at the last minute that you felt was just too strong?
Madonna: Thereās a lot of stuff with Warren that I cut out ā there were phone conversations I thought were really moving and touching and revealing, but Warren didnāt know we were recording. It wasnāt fair, plus itās a federal offense. He, more than anybody, was reluctant to be filmed. Ultimately I donāt think he respected what I was doing or took it seriously. He just thought I was f*cking around, making a home movie.
Advocate: Of the stuff thatās in the movie, was there any pressure from anywhere to cut certain scenes?
Madonna: Everything. Listen, almost anything that you squirmed in your seat about was something that people wanted to cut ā from the confrontation with my girlfriend who finger-f*cked me to my talking about my brotherās alcoholism to the truth-or-dare game where the two guys are kissing. My agency is freaking out because I do that [sticking her finger in her mouth as if to vomit] after Kevin Costner leaves the dressing room, ācause Kevin Costner is like this big hero and everything. But, I mean, come on: people rip me to shreds every chance they get, and I can take it, so he should be able to take it.
Advocate: Youāre still pushing the envelope with this movie.
Madonna: Itās the next step after āJustify My Love.ā What am I supposed to do now? I know that Iām a political person. It excites me to be a political person. Iām incensed by the prejudices in the world, and if I can do something with my celebrity to make people see things that ordinarily they may not pay attention to, then I feel responsible to do it. But I want to have fun while Iām doing it.
Advocate: Is it true your manager was nervous about the movie because the dancers are gay?
Madonna: Thatās what they said in Vanity Fair. My manager was nervous about everything. It shows me being bitchy to people and cold. But I set out to make a movie about myself, so I wasnāt going to cut out parts of myself. I said, āFreddy, they already think Iām a MINGE bitch, they already think Iām Attila the Hun. They already compare me to Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein.ā
Advocate: Were you appalled at any especially unattractive behavior you saw?
Madonna: No, I was never appalled by myself. I felt a little bit uneasy about certain things. But honestly ā and I know this sounds really corny ā Iāve learned to love myself more through this movie and to see that in the midst of all my ambition and desire to succeed and my search for approval, I do give things to people. I bring some sort of happiness to their lives. So Iām not so hard on myself anymore.
Advocate: Speaking of balls, in the movie youāre very emasculating to a lot of the men ā your manager, your boyfriend, all the dancers, poor Kevin Costner.
Madonna: Emasculating? Now look, you only take balls away from people when they give them to you.
Advocate: You call Warren āpussy man,ā you call yours dancers āqueens on the rag.ā
Madonna: They are! They are! Warren is a pussy, and they are queens on the rag sometimes! Those guys were the biggest bitches I ever met! They were impossible. They are what they are. When I say āpussyā you know what I mean. Heās a wimp.
Advocate: Do you enjoy playing that role of castrating bitch?
Madonna: [Pausing] I enjoy expressing myself, and if I think someoneās being a pussy, I say it.
Advocate: Was there anything that was absolutely sacred that could not be filmed?
Madonna: I had a really nice reunion with my grandmother. She was so old and so sick. I thought she would be frightened to death if we turned the cameras on. That was the only time I said, āYou just canāt.ā
Advocate: Have you always had a prayer circle with the musicians before going on?
Madonna: Absolutely. Always.
Advocate: I noticed that youāre the only one who gets to talk in the prayer circle.
Madonna: Iām the boss.
Advocate: And I understand that in their contract, the dancers had to agree that they could not talk to the press without permission.
Madonna: Donāt lump that together with the prayer. Everyone that is employed by me signs a privacy contract, from my maid to a backup singer. Itās a way of protecting myself before I get to know people and know that I can trust them.
Advocate: So you get to āexpress yourself,ā but they donāt?
Madonna: No, they get to express themselves. Theyāre all dancers and singers and whatever. They are all free to go out in the world and have their own careers and express themselves. But I wouldnāt want them to exploit me. As far as the prayer goes, letās face it, we had a certain amount of time before we went onstage, and, honestly, I will take credit for being the most eloquent person in the group. If I let all of them have a chance to say a prayer, we would have been there for four fours.
Advocate: In the movie, the one straight dancer, Oliver, is used on the one hand as an emblem of homophobia, in his reaction to the gay dancers, and on the other hands he has a certain amount of authority because he speaks in the movie and the others donāt. Why was that?
Madonna: There was a lot of tension not only because he was homophobic but also because the other dancers were jealous. They thought that he was like a mamaās boy, that I spent too much time with him. The fact is, I spent too much time with all of them. I totally spoiled Jose and Luis in unbelievable ways. Itās disgusting when I think about it. They could have come in and asked me for anything, and I would have given it to them. It went back and forth. When I was with Oliver, Jose and Luis and all of them would say all these nasty things: āThere goes mamaās boy.ā Then Oliver would say, āDid you take the girls shopping? Did you buy them their purses?ā That kind of thing. All this jealousy. They all wanted the same thing: my attention.
Advocate: The other thing is Luis and Jose and Slam [Sallim āSlamā Gauwloos] and Carlton [Wilborn] have built-in antennas to nightclubs. As soon as we got into a town, they knew where the clubs were, and they were out all night. We would schedule interviews, and Luis and Jose were constantly f*cking us over and not showing up or oversleeping because they were always partying. Oliver was always where we could find him. Thatās why we got so much footage of him.
Madonna: Like a good little mamaās boy.
Advocate: Exactly. But Oliver came from a completely different world. He came from the world of Compton, Bell Biv Devoe, all those boys that hang out together and wish they were M.C. Hammer. Everybody else had a certain camaraderie with each other and related to each other, Iām sure because they were gay. I think Oliver almost felt persecuted because he was straight. You know?
Madonna: Do you think there was poetic justice in that?
Advocate: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely! I know he learned something from it, even though his homophobic behavior is probably gonna piss a lot of people off. Like anybody who is homophobic, itās fear of the unknown. He didnāt have any choice but to allow himself to look at it. I keep telling Michael Jackson, āIād love to turn Jose and Luis on you for a week.ā They pull you out of the shoe box youāre in. Anybody whoās in a shoe box in the closet cannot be in one after hanging around with Luis and Jose. Or me, for that matter.
Madonna: I have this whole vision about Michael. Weāre considering working on a song together. I would like to completely redo his whole image, give him a Caesar ā you know, that really short haircut ā and I want to get him out of those buckly boots and all that stuff. What I want him to do is go to New York and hang out for a week with the House of Extravaganza [ a group of voguers]. They could give him a new style. Iāve already asked Jose and Luis if they would do it. Theyāre thrilled and ready. I said, āCould you give this guy a make-over for me?ā because I think thatās really what he needs.
Advocate: Is he up for it?
Madonna: I donāt know. Heās up for a couple of things that surprise me. The thing is, Iām not going to get together and do some stupid ballad or love duet ā no oneās going to buy it, first of all. I said, āLook, Michael, if you want to do something with me, you have to be willing to go all the way or Iām not going to do it.ā He keeps saying yes.
Advocate: Letās go back to balls. Who turned you on to vogueing in the first place?
Madonna: I went to the Sound Factory with my girlfriend Debi M. because I wanted to go dancing. At the time I was trying to visualize things for my show, and I was hanging around a lot of clubs ā watching different styles, looking for dancers. I donāt like the people who go to class all the time; theyāre really boring dancers. I was just looking for some street dancers, you know, and when I saw Jose and Luis dancing, I was completely blown away by them. I was afraid to approach them.
Advocate: Debi told me there was this guy named Luis Ninja whoās a spokesperson for the House of Extravaganza. I asked to meet him, and it was hysterical. This guy shows up at my hotel room in New York with a suit on and a briefcase. he got this deejay friend to open another club in the afternoon, brought the whole House of Extravaganza, and they performed for me. They had the lights going, this music pumping. It was just the best dancers youāve ever seen, and they were all freestyling. I didnāt know where to look. I was blown away.
Madonna: I chose Jose and Luis because I thought they were the strongest performers. I invited them to come to the auditions, because I wanted to see them dance in other styles. Luis came, and Luis will try anything. He was not so great at everything, but he was willing to try it, and I loved him for that. Jose wouldnāt do a goddamned thing. Jose sat in the back with his hands on his hips. Thatās what I mean about a queen on the rag. He was just, like, āThe f*ck I will.ā So of course I loved him for that. I thought, Now this guy has balls.
Advocate: Tell me your whole history of working with gay people.
Madonna: Iād say that after my father, the most powerful, important relationship of my life was with Christopher Flynn, who was my ballet teacher, who was gay. I didnāt understand the concept of gay at that time. I was probably 12 or 13 years old. All I knew was that my ballet teacher was different from everybody else. He was so alive. He had a certain theatricality about him. He made you proud of yourself, just the way he came up to me and put my face in his hand and said, āYou are beautiful.ā No one had woken up that part of me yet. I was too busy being repressed by my Catholic father.
Advocate: By the time I was 15 or 16, he took me to my first gay club to go dancing. Iād never been to a club. Iād only been to high school dances, and no guys would ever ask me to dance, because they thought I was insane, so Iād just go out and dance by myself.
Madonna: They thought you were insane?
Advocate: Yes. In school and in my neighborhood and everything, I felt like such an outsider, a misfit, a weirdo. And suddenly when I went to the gay club, I didnāt feel that way anymore. I just felt at home. I had a whole new sense of myself.
Madonna: Until that point I kept seeing myself through macho heterosexual eyes. Because I was a really aggressive woman, guys thought of me as a really strange girl. I know I frightened them. I didnāt add up for them. They didnāt want to ask me out. I felt inadequate around them, and I felt not beautiful, and I felt like I could never fit in with the prom queens and the cheerleaders and the perfect girls that all went out with the football players. You know what I mean? I was really down on myself. When Christopher introduced me to this life, I suddenly thought, Thatās not the only way that I have to be. I felt that my behavior was accepted around him.
Advocate: How did your father feel about your going to gay clubs?
Madonna: My father didnāt know. At the time he would have freaked out.
Advocate: How did your Catholic background prepare you for meeting gay people and hanging out with gay people?
Madonna: Well, people didnāt talk about gay life in the Catholic Church. They barely talked about sex. So I didnāt see it as something I was supposed to be wary of or afraid of. All I knew was I was attracted to Christopher and his life-style. I fell in love with him and the way he treated me. I started spending a lot of time with dancers, and almost every male dancer that I knew was gay. Then I went through another kind of feeling inadequate because I was constantly falling in love with gay men. of course, I was so miserable that I wasnāt a man.
Advocate: Do you feel you consciously incorporated elements of gay culture in your work?
Madonna: Itās not conscious, it just happened. My brother Christopherās gay, and he and I have always been the closest members of my family.
Advocate: Did you always know he was gay?
Madonna: Itās funny. When he was really young, he was so beautiful and had girls all over him, more than any of my other brothers. I knew something was different, but it was not clear to me. I just thought, I know there are a lot of girls around, but I donāt get that he has a girlfriend. He was like a girl-magnet. They all seemed incredibly fond of him and close to him in a way I hadnāt seen men with women.
Advocate: Iāll tell you when I knew. After I met Christopher, I brought my brother to my ballet class because he wanted to start studying dance. I just saw something between them. I canāt even tell you exactly what. But then I thought, Oh, I get it. Oh, OK. He likes men too. It was this incredible revelation, but I didnāt say anything to my brother yet. Iām not even sure he knew. Heās two years younger than me. He was still a baby. I could just feel something.
Madonna: Something tribal?
Advocate: Yeah, exactly.
Madonna: How did your family feel about your brother being gay?
Advocate: My fatherās very old-fashioned, traditional, grew up in that macho Italian world. I know heās probably not really comfortable with it. He doesnāt treat my brother any differently than all of us, but I know that thereās an unspoken thing where Christopher doesnāt feel like heās accepted by my father. All of my other brothers and sisters certainly accept it. God knows what my father accepts in my life, you know what I mean? My father is a very silent man. He keeps a lot inside.
Madonna: I feel like Iām always working with gay men. For some reason thatās who I have the most camaraderie with. I donāt really know why. I think, on the one hand, I feel their persecution. They are looked at as outsiders, so I relate to that. On the other hand, I feel that most gay men are so much more in touch with a certain kind of sensitivity that heterosexual men arenāt allowed to be in touch with, their feminine side. To me theyāre whole human beings, more so than most of the straight men that I know.
Advocate: You have a huge gay following, as Iām sure you know. What do you think you say to gay people? What message do they get?
Madonna: I am a high-visibility person, and I know that they know that Iām completely compassionate about their choice in life, their life-style, and I support it. To have a person like me saying that is helpful to them. They appreciate that. But maybe there are other things. You say ātribalā ā maybe I want to say āprimal.ā I donāt really know. A lot of the issues I deal with are sexual, and Iām constantly trying to challenge the accepted ways of behaving sexually. Maybe they appreciate that.
Advocate: What do teenage kids from Middle America think when they see men dancing together or wearing bullet bras? Are they digesting these sophisticated images?
Madonna: They digest it on a lot of different levels. Some people will see it and be disgusted by it, but maybe theyāll be unconsciously aroused by it, maybe theyāll be unconsciously challenged by the idea of men in womenās lingerie. Then there are people who see it and are amused by it, see the irony of it, see things that maybe frightened them before and know that itās not something to be so frightened of. If people keep seeing it and seeing it and seeing it, eventually itās not going to be such a strange thing.
Advocate: Thereās a long tradition of singer-goddesses with gay followings: Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Diana Ross. Youāre now part of that. What do you think makes that type of woman attractive to gay men?
Madonna: A lot of people saw Marilyn Monroe and Judy Garland as persecuted and tragic and vulnerable, and I think a lot of gay men feel that way because of their particular predicament in society and not being accepted completely.
Advocate: You keep coming back to this Marilyn imagery, and itās hard to tell whether itās a mask of vulnerability you put over your steel-plated heart or whether you think of her as a role model for yourself.
Madonna: Itās not that I think of her as a role model, but she was made into something not human in a way, and I can relate to that. her sexuality was something everyone was obsessed with, and that I can relate to. And there were certain things about her vulnerability that Iām curious about and attracted to. But I donāt see myself as Marilyn Monroe. Iām almost playing with her image and turning it around. Itās the idea of using imagery people understand but having a different message. What Iām saying is not what she was saying.
Advocate: What is the difference?
Madonna: We have different lives. I donāt claim to know her, and I can barely believe most of whatās been written about her. I know how untruthfully people write about you and how it ends up being about one thing and not a million things, which is what a personās made up of. But the impression that I get is, she didnāt know her own strength and didnāt know how to nurture it and wasnāt surrounded by nurturing people. I donāt have an addictive personality. I donāt drink a lot and take pills a lot and try to make myself forget my life, because I love my life. So thereās that.
Advocate: So youāre seeing the vulnerability and erotic sadness she projects as a good thing, a female strength and not a weakness?
Madonna: Absolutely.
Advocate: Youāre playing with it as a role, as a mask, as if to say āThereās power in this.ā
Madonna: Yes, there is power. I take it one step further and say, āNow what if it was done this way? And then what if I put the mask down?ā
Advocate: I heard this story that when you and Sean Penn were engaged, you were on the phone one day with David Geffen, and he said, āMadonna, I was going to go straight for you,ā and Sean said, āDavid, I was going to go gay for you.ā
Madonna: I can imagine it. Davidās always saying things like that to me.
Advocate: What do you think about outing?
Madonna: I understand what theyāre doing. I understand why theyāre doing it. Iām not exactly sure if itās the most productive way to do it. It would be so helpful for the straight community to see men in powerful positions coming out and saying āIām gayā so they donāt have these preconceived notions that all gay men are smarmy idiots living on the street or whatever it is people think of gay men. I think it would be really helpful and productive. Iām not sure everybody else coming out and going āHeās gay, heās gay, and heās gayā is going to do it.
Advocate: What do famous people really have to lose by being known as gay?
Madonna: Iām not really sure. Maybe they think, if theyāre the head of a big corporation or the head of a studio or the head of a record label, that people will boycott them or try to get them fired from their positions. Iām not sure. Maybe all these queens who are running this town should come right out, and maybe theyād all see that it wasnāt such a horrible thing. Certainly everybody in the Hollywood community knows who the gay people are and who arenāt. I think the gay community has come a long way, but AIDS has set everybody back, in a way. It gave everyone a reason to point their finger at the gay community and say āSee, you are horrible, dirty things.ā Maybe it pushed everybody back in their closet. I donāt know.
Advocate: Why is the music industry so homophobic?
Madonna: Theyāre not going to be when I get finished with them.
Advocate: Do you think Geffenās coming out will make a difference?
Madonna: I think itāll help. Maybe when people realize that heās not going to be assassinated in the town square, other people will do the same. What I really wish would happen from Truth or Dare is that movies would be made about gay life-styles that wouldnāt be these art-house movies like Longtime Companion that nobody saw. Which leads me to this book that I want to make into a movie. Have you see this? [Holding up a copy of Giovanniās Room by James Baldwin.] Itās incredible. What I hope is ā maybe Iām being too idealistic ā that my movie changes things in Hollywood in that direction. But like anything, itās slow progress, two steps forward, one step back. Even though I dealt with some other-than-heterosexual themes in āJustify My Love,ā unfortunately some people just saw it in a superficial way and didnāt really want to deal with it.
Advocate: Deal with what?
Madonna: The sexual themes in it. It wasnāt just about me. Itās about life, about human nature. I think everybody has a bisexual nature. Thatās my theory. I could be wrong.
Advocate: Are you as kinky personally as your image makes you seem?
Madonna: Well, what do you mean by kinky? I mean, I am aroused by two men kissing. Is that kinky? I am aroused by the idea of a woman making love to me while either a man or another woman watches. Is that kinky? Also, just because Iām presented life in a certain way doesnāt mean I do all these things. Itās just something I choose to express.
Advocate: How do you feel about dildos?
Madonna: Iām not really interested in dildos.
Advocate: How about sex toys of any kind?
Madonna: No. I like the human body. I like flesh. I like things that are living and breathing. And a finger will do just fine. Iāve never owned a vibrator, if thatās what you want to know.
Advocate: Tell me about your boyfriend Tony Ward. Is it true he has an ass you can serve drinks off of?
Madonna: Well, Iāve never been served a drink off his ass. But he does have a great ass.
Advocate: How big is his dick?
Madonna: I donāt know. I havenāt measured it, but itās big enough for me.
Advocate: Does size matter to you?
Madonna: No.
Advocate: Do you used a strap-on with Tony?
Madonna: No. I donāt know where that story came from.
Advocate: How did you feel about his having posed nude for gay magazines?
Madonna: Well, I sort of felt camaraderie. He had these pictures done when he was really young and needed money. The same thing happened to me. I finally felt like, āGod, somebody can understand how I felt.ā It didnāt bother me.
Advocate: Tell me about Warren Beatty. How big is his dick?
Madonna: Once again, I havenāt measured it, but itās a perfectly wonderful size.
Advocate: Does he have a gay bone in his body?
Madonna: I would think so. Yeah. God only knows how many times Tennessee Williams tried to pick him up. He was a great beauty, and he still is a very handsome man, but I mean just drop-dead gorgeous. I donāt know that heās ever slept with a man. Heās certainly not homophobic. I asked him once, āWould you ever sleep with a man?ā and he said he was sorry that he hadnāt but that now because of AIDS he felt it was an unsafe thing to start experimenting.
Advocate: Did you give him a little safe-sex lesson when he said that?
Madonna: No, I didnāt. Because, you know, if I have to give Warren Beatty safe-sex lessons, then what is this world coming to?
Advocate: Tell me about Sandra Bernhard.
Madonna: What do you want to know?
Advocate: How big is her dick?
Madonna: Huge. Itās the biggest dick Iāve ever seen. Sandyās a great gal. Sandyās one of my only girlfriends, really. Sheās one of the only girls that can take me. Sheās a really ballsy girl. Most girls just hide under the couch. We frighten everyone out of the room.
Advocate: You were very coy about whether you were sleeping together. What was that about?
Madonna: Sandy and I have always been great friends. I think in the very beginning there was a flirtation, but I realized I could have a really good friend in Sandra, and I wanted to maintain the friendship. When I went on the David Letterman show, it wasnāt exactly clear how things were going to go. But Sandy started playing up that we were girlfriends, and I thought, Great, OK, let me go for it.
Because, you know, I love to f*ck with people. Just as people have preconceived notions about gay men, they certainly do about gay women. So if I could be some sort of a detonator to that bomb, then I was willing to do that. It was really fun. Then, of course, it went highly out of control. Everybody picked up on it, and the question was, Are we sleeping together? Itās not really important.
Because, you know, I love to f*ck with people. Just as people have preconceived notions about gay men, they certainly do about gay women. So if I could be some sort of a detonator to that bomb, then I was willing to do that. It was really fun. Then, of course, it went highly out of control. Everybody picked up on it, and the question was, Are we sleeping together? Itās not really important.
Advocate: Itās a little surprising that Sandra backed away from it the way that she did. She was more scared by that than you were.
Madonna: The fact is that Sandra sleeps with men too, and I think maybe sheās trying to find happiness in her life. Maybe she was just thinking, Can everybody just shut up so I can find somebody to have a decent relationship with?
Sandraās one of the most open people I know. You should see her in public. Sheās not trying to hide anything. I think itās ludicrous that people are accusing her of being in the closet or ashamed of being gay.
The fact is, sheās a great friend of mine. Whether Iām gay or not is irrelevant. Whether I slept with her or not is irrelevant. Iām perfectly willing to have people think that I did. you know, I do not want to protest too much. I donāt care. If it makes people feel better to think that I slept with her, then they can think it. And if it makes them feel safer to think that I didnāt, then thatās fine too.
You know, Iād almost rather they thought that I did. Just so they could know that here was this girl that everyone was buying records of, and she was eating someoneās pussy. So there.
Sandraās one of the most open people I know. You should see her in public. Sheās not trying to hide anything. I think itās ludicrous that people are accusing her of being in the closet or ashamed of being gay.
The fact is, sheās a great friend of mine. Whether Iām gay or not is irrelevant. Whether I slept with her or not is irrelevant. Iām perfectly willing to have people think that I did. you know, I do not want to protest too much. I donāt care. If it makes people feel better to think that I slept with her, then they can think it. And if it makes them feel safer to think that I didnāt, then thatās fine too.
You know, Iād almost rather they thought that I did. Just so they could know that here was this girl that everyone was buying records of, and she was eating someoneās pussy. So there.
Advocate: So when did you have your first sexual experience with a woman?
Madonna: Probably when I was about 7 or 8. All of my sexual experiences when I was young were with girls. I mean, we didnāt have those sleep-over parties for nothing. I think thatās really normal: same-sex experimentation. You get really curious, and thereās your girlfriend, and sheās spending the night with you, and it happens.
Advocate: Were you ever in love with a woman?
Madonna: Iāve had lots of crushes. I think Iāve only been in love with men, because ultimately the approval I seek is my fatherās.
Advocate: Why do lesbians adore you?
Madonna: I donāt know. Why donāt you go and ask them?
Advocate: How do you feel about them?
Madonna: Them? Them?
Advocate: Itās interesting that there are all these stars gay men adore but for the most part gay women donāt.
Madonna: What about Laura Nyro? Thereās K.D. Lang, whoās gorgeous, by the way. She looks like Sean [Penn]. I met her, and I thought, Oh my God, sheās the female version of Sean. I could fall in love with her.
Advocate: Itās very rare for there to be a star like you who equally turns on gay men and gay women.
Madonna: Well, Iām an attractive girl.
Advocate: Is there a difference between the people who want to brand powerful women as lesbians to discredit them and the ones who want to claim them for their own to validate themselves?
Madonna: So youāre talking about what straight men do versus what gay women do? I know why strain men say of powerful women, āOh, sheās a dyke.ā It makes them feel safe to say, āThey canāt be women who like to f*ck men, because Iām intimidated by them.ā I think gay women would want to claim me as their own because I am a really strong woman. I am assertive in a way that a lot of gay women are, and I could be a really good mascot for them or spokesperson or something.
Advocate: Youāre sexually assertive the way gay men are.
Madonna: I am. Rupert Everett said, āThe way you are with men is just like a queen.ā
Advocate: What childhood experiences did you have that influenced your sexuality, that made you accept it and be aggressive about it?
Madonna: I think not having a really strong mother figure when I was very young. My father and my older brothers influenced me a great deal. I did what they did. I said what I wanted. I burped when I had to burp. When I liked a boy on the playground, I chased him. There was no one over me saying āNow, girls donāt do that.ā
Advocate: Did you have any specific childhood fantasies?
Madonna: You mean sexual fantasies? I feel that my whole life is influenced by men, not women. When my mother died, there was a period when I thought I was the wife and mother. Iād taken over that part. I think I had sexual fantasies about every older man who was related to me. I didnāt really discover masturbation till I was 17, 18 years old. Iād had intercourse before I understood that.
But I remember when I was a really little girl, my favorite thing to do ā I suppose because I was sexually aroused ā was to sit on the toilet backward. I would just sit there, and somehow it would relieve me. Really weird. I also liked the idea of standing above the toilet and peeing, so what I would do is lift the toilet seat up and straddle it and just try to aim my pee into the toilet.
But I remember when I was a really little girl, my favorite thing to do ā I suppose because I was sexually aroused ā was to sit on the toilet backward. I would just sit there, and somehow it would relieve me. Really weird. I also liked the idea of standing above the toilet and peeing, so what I would do is lift the toilet seat up and straddle it and just try to aim my pee into the toilet.
Advocate: Do you ever feel self-conscious when youāre with a lover about living up to your sex-goddess image?
Madonna: Not at all.
Advocate: How do you feel about pornography?
Madonna: Iām not even sure I know what pornography is ā Playboy magazine? I look at Playboy magazine sometimes ācause there are some really beautiful girls from the neck down. For some reason theyāre awful-looking in the face. I donāt know why that is. To me, those traditional things that are supposed to turn people on ā porno movies and porno magazines ā are not half as exciting as other things.
Advocate: Do you have any feelings about feminists who are opposed to pornography?
Madonna: No. I have no feelings about them.
Advocate: You said you draw the line in terms of obscenity on TV at violence and degradation of women.
Madonna: Not just of women, of anybody. To me, the vibe that I get from a lot of those videos is that men are being really cruel to women. Itās an image that Iāve grown up with that I think is unfair. I donāt think Iām being unfair to anybody. Tony [Ward] knew what was happening to him in the āJustify My Loveā video, fully understood it, and was into it. Iām not sure that these girls with tit jobs do. The sexuality in my videos is all consented to. No oneās taking advantage of each other.
Maybe what Iām saying is hypocritical. I suppose people would say, āYou emasculate men in what you do.ā Well, straight men need to be emasculated. Iām sorry. They all need to be slapped around. Women have been kept down for too long. Every straight guy should have a manās tongue in his mouth at least once.
Maybe what Iām saying is hypocritical. I suppose people would say, āYou emasculate men in what you do.ā Well, straight men need to be emasculated. Iām sorry. They all need to be slapped around. Women have been kept down for too long. Every straight guy should have a manās tongue in his mouth at least once.
Advocate: Where do you buy your lingerie?
Madonna: Everywhere. [Laughing] Where do I buy my lingerie? Frederickās of Hollywood, Neiman-Marcus, anywhere.
Advocate: What do you do with your old lingerie?
Madonna: I throw it away.
Advocate: What do you think of the way George Bush is handling the AIDS epidemic?
Madonna: I donāt really think heās handling it. Itās not front-page news anymore, so a lot of people think itās not something important to be dealt with anymore.
Advocate: How would you go about getting Bushās attention to end the epidemic?
Madonna: Well, I donāt think Bush can end the AIDS epidemic. I think itās all the things that Iām trying to do ā to educate people and make them realize that AIDS is not just a gay disease. Education is the most important thing.
Advocate: Benefits are a fantastic way to raise money for care and education and so on. But they donāt have the political effect of making the White House say, āWeāre going to make this our top priority, to put someone in place to mastermind how weāre going to end this epidemic.ā How do you think you can use your power to do that?
Madonna: I guess I could run for the Senate.
Advocate: Do you think people in Hollywood can have any effect politically on the White House?
Madonna: Yeah, because they are obsessed with people in Hollywood. The thing is to get people the straight community looks up to, to get them to take a stand on things ā Tom Cruise or somebody.
Advocate: Why donāt these entertainers take a stand?
Madonna: For the same reason people are afraid to come out and say theyāre gay, I guess, because they think itās some kind of plague. Unfortunately, people donāt think AIDS is a really big deal until someone close to them gets it. I wish Kevin Costner would be as interested in the AIDS community as he is in Indians. It would really be helpful.
But look, everybody chooses the things that are important to them. Unfortunately, because being gay is considered such a freak thing in America and people are so homophobic and AIDS is related to being gay, people are afraid to say, āI wish President Bush would spend less money on arms and more money on funding research to find a cure for AIDS.ā There just arenāt enough people doing that.
But look, everybody chooses the things that are important to them. Unfortunately, because being gay is considered such a freak thing in America and people are so homophobic and AIDS is related to being gay, people are afraid to say, āI wish President Bush would spend less money on arms and more money on funding research to find a cure for AIDS.ā There just arenāt enough people doing that.
Advocate: What do you think of ACT UP [the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, a direct-action group]?
Madonna: What do you mean, what do I think of it?
Advocate: Are you fer āem or agin āem?
Madonna: Iām for āem!
Advocate: What did you think of the St. Patrickās Cathedral demonstration in New York City, where members of ACT UP disrupted a service that Cardinal John OāConnor was giving and somebody crumpled a communion wafer?
Madonna: Sometimes you just have to go in and make a mess of things to get people to pay attention. I think they did the right thing. Iāll probably get persecuted for saying that.
Advocate: Do you have a spiritual practice?
Madonna: I suppose praying is a spiritual practice.
Advocate: Do you pray daily?
Madonna: I donāt count he times I pray, but Iām aware that I do.
Advocate: Would you say that you are a practicing Catholic?
Madonna: No. Catholicism is a really mean religion, and itās incredibly hypocritical. How could I be supportive of it as an organized religion? But it plays a role in my life ācause you canāt really get a lot of things out of your head, such as what Jesus Christ looks like and that divorce is a horrible thing.
Advocate: Have you ever had sex in a church?
Madonna: No, but when I was a little girl, I was at church by myself on a Saturday afternoon going to confession because my father insisted. I donāt know why now. No one was there, and instead of going out the main entrance, I went through this vestibule off to the side with a swinging door. I opened the door a little bit, and there was this couple standing up f*cking in the church. I thought, Oh my God! I shut the door really fast.
Thatās the only sex Iāve seen in a church. Seems like a neat thing to do, though.
Thatās the only sex Iāve seen in a church. Seems like a neat thing to do, though.
Advocate: Itās funny how Christianity often puts spirituality and sexuality in conflict with each other ā if youāre sexual, you canāt be spiritual and vice versa.
Madonna: Thatās what I mean about Catholicism. Your sexual life is supposed to be dead if youāre a good Catholic. Thatās wrong. Itās human nature to be sexual, so why would God want you to deny your human nature?
Advocate: Do you relate to any particular saints or mythological deities?
Madonna: [Lolling on her back and pointing to the painting on the ceiling] Well, here we have Diana. Would you like to hear the myth of this painting?
Advocate: Sure.
Madonna: This is painted by Langlois, the French painter. Here we have Diana. I donāt know if itās Roman or Greek, but in one mythology sheās goddess of the moon, in the other sheās goddess of the hunt. She has not only the crescent moon above her head but also the thing that holds the arrows on her back.
Advocate: Quiver.
Madonna: Yes. And this is Hermes [meaning Endymion]. He was a very vain man. He thought he was very beautiful, and as you can see, he is. He said to Zeus, āI wish I could stay beautiful forever. I donāt want to grow old. So could you give me eternal life, keep me young forever?ā
Zeus played a trick on him and said, āSure, Iāll do that for you,ā but he put him to sleep ā so now heās going to be beautiful forever but asleep. And while heās lying there looking beautiful, everyone could take advantage of him, and he wasnāt even awake to enjoy it. Thatās Cupid in the middle between him and Diana.
Zeus played a trick on him and said, āSure, Iāll do that for you,ā but he put him to sleep ā so now heās going to be beautiful forever but asleep. And while heās lying there looking beautiful, everyone could take advantage of him, and he wasnāt even awake to enjoy it. Thatās Cupid in the middle between him and Diana.
Advocate: So sheās about to hop on him?
Madonna: Sheās about to go for it. And Cupid is basically saying, āHere, take a peek.ā I love the idea of being goddess of the hunt. But I donāt really identify with her.
In terms of saints, when I was confirmed I took the name Veronica as my confirmation name because she wiped the face of Jesus. You know, you werenāt supposed to help Christ while he was on his way to the Crucifixion; she was not afraid to step out and wipe the sweat off him and help him. So I liked her for doing that, and I took her name. Thereās Mary Magdalene ā she was considered a fallen woman because she slept with men, but Jesus said it was OK. I think they probably got it on, Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Those are my saint heroes.
In terms of saints, when I was confirmed I took the name Veronica as my confirmation name because she wiped the face of Jesus. You know, you werenāt supposed to help Christ while he was on his way to the Crucifixion; she was not afraid to step out and wipe the sweat off him and help him. So I liked her for doing that, and I took her name. Thereās Mary Magdalene ā she was considered a fallen woman because she slept with men, but Jesus said it was OK. I think they probably got it on, Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Those are my saint heroes.
Advocate: Thereās a fascinating scene in Truth or Dare where you say, āI donāt want to be the worldās greatest singer or dancer; I want to push peopleās buttons, I want to be provocative, I want to be political.ā The next p word should be powerful. How do you perceive your own power in the world?
Madonna: I donāt like to think about it. Iām probably more powerful than I think, in terms of how I can influence people.
Advocate: Do you have an ultimate goal?
Madonna: No.
Advocate: Are there things youād like to do with your power but canāt?
Madonna: No. I think ultimately Iām going to achieve the things I want to achieve. I have to believe that, you know what I mean? Iād love for people not to have so many prejudices about sexual preference and things like that.
Advocate: Are you addicted to fame and scandal? Do you constantly think, How can I top this?
Madonna: No. Iām not addicted to scandal. I feel that Iām on a mission to educate people. When I say āpushing peopleās buttons,ā I mean really making them see things and making them feel things theyāre not necessarily comfortable with feeling. Itās not āOh, I just want to be scandalous.ā
Advocate: Youāve sometimes given the impression in interviews that what youād really like to do is be married and wash your husbandās socks.
Madonna: No, but thereās something to be said for a domestic life and knowing somebodyās there for you. I just think itās hard to live the life I lead and then have this happily married life. I havenāt been successful at it so far, but whoās to say I canāt be?
Advocate: Whatās stopping you?
Madonna: I havenāt met somebody who could take all of me, ultimately, who I think is my intellectual equal and truly understands me. Do you feel like youāre my shrink now?
Advocate: Iāve been feeling that way since you decided to sprawl on your back.
Madonna: I do this often in my living room as I look at this painting, so I feel very comfortable.
Advocate: In retrospect, how did you feel about doing Speed-the-Plow on Broadway?
Madonna: Oh, it was just a painful experience I learned from. I was depressed the whole time I was doing it because Ron [Silver] and Joe [Mantegna] ha the good parts. They were victorious in the end, and I felt like a loser at the end of every night. I really felt my part, you know. I also knew the critics were hovering over me like vultures waiting to rip me to shreds. Itās horrible to go out and do it with that feeling.
Advocate: When will you do your next Broadway play?
Madonna: The next time a good part is offered to me in a good play.
Advocate: Are you definitely doing the movie of Evita?
Madonna: I think so. Every day is a different story. Itās been plagued from the beginning. As you know, I was going to do it, then I got fired [by director Oliver Stone, whoās no longer involved with the project].
Itās a real big production, and Hollywoodās really clamping down on budgets these days. Glenn Caron wrote a brilliant script for it, and you canāt make Evita for the small amount of money Disney is saying they want to make it for. They want Jeremy Irons to play Juan. All the things they want that would make it incredible cost money. So where do you draw the line? I donāt want it to be a mediocre rendition of Evita. It has to be grand. Itās an epic thing. If there is an Evita, I contend that I will be her.
Advocate: What do you think it will take to make you as good an actor as you want to be?
Madonna: Experience. Like anything, the more you do it, the better you get.
Advocate: Hereās a multiple-choice question. If you could be another star for six months, would you be (a) Michelle Pfeiffer, (b) Jack Nicholson, or (c) Vaginal Creme Davis?
Madonna: Whoās that?
Advocate: An LA drag queen.
Madonna: Oh. None of the above.
Advocate: Whose approval matters to you?
Madonna: Whomever Iāve in love with at the time. My best friendās, my fatherās, which Iāll never get.
Advocate: Even now?
Madonna: Yeah, even now.
Advocate: Do you use fake names when you check into hotels?
Madonna: Yes. When I was on tour, my name for that period of time was Kit Moresby.
Advocate: You were just waiting to be kidnapped by Arabs?
Madonna: Oh, God, that book [Paul Bowlesā The Sheltering Sky] was so sexy. It was all I could talk about. I wanted to go to Morocco and meet Paul Bowles. Then when the movie came out, I didnāt want to be Kit Moresby anymore. Debra Winger was so wrong. Oh, it was so wrong, so wrong. It was so unsexy. It was horrible.
Advocate: Do you like to read?
Madonna: I l-o-o-ove to read.
Advocate: What do you read?
Madonna: Everything. Iām reading Naked by the Window, a true story set in the art world [about Ana Mendieta, who died in a mysterious fall from a window, and her husband Carl Andre, who was acquitted of murdering her]. I just finished Giovanniās Room.
I also brought this book of Anne Sextonās poems. I worship this woman. [Holding up the book] This is what my mother looked like. I swear! My sister and I used to read all of her poems when we were in high school because she looked like our mother. She talks about death a lot and breast cancer and mothers, all these death images that we were obsessed with. Do you read her stuff?
I also brought this book of Anne Sextonās poems. I worship this woman. [Holding up the book] This is what my mother looked like. I swear! My sister and I used to read all of her poems when we were in high school because she looked like our mother. She talks about death a lot and breast cancer and mothers, all these death images that we were obsessed with. Do you read her stuff?
Advocate: I love her stuff.
Madonna: OK, Iām going to read you this poem, and thatās going to be the end of our interview. And the reason I want to read it to you is, it explains why I made my movie. Itās called āFor John, Who Begs Me Not to Inquire Furtherā:
Not that it was beautiful,
But that, in the end, there was
A certain sense of order there;
Something worth learning
In that narrow diary of my mind,
In the commonplaces of the asylum
Where the cracked mirror
Or my own selfish death
Outstared me.
But that, in the end, there was
A certain sense of order there;
Something worth learning
In that narrow diary of my mind,
In the commonplaces of the asylum
Where the cracked mirror
Or my own selfish death
Outstared me.
And if I tried
To give you something else,
Something outside of myself,
You would not know
That the worst of anyone
Can be, finally,
An accident of hope.
I tapped my own head;
It was glass, an inverted bowl.
To give you something else,
Something outside of myself,
You would not know
That the worst of anyone
Can be, finally,
An accident of hope.
I tapped my own head;
It was glass, an inverted bowl.
It is a small thing
To rage in your own bowl.
At first it was private.
Then it was more than myself;
It was you, or your house
Or your kitchen.
And if you turn away
Because there is no lesson here
I will hold my awkward bowl,
To rage in your own bowl.
At first it was private.
Then it was more than myself;
It was you, or your house
Or your kitchen.
And if you turn away
Because there is no lesson here
I will hold my awkward bowl,
With all its cracked stars shining
Like a complicated lie,
And fasten a new skin around it
As if I were dressing an orange
Or a strange sun.
Not that it was beautiful,
But that I found some order there.
There ought to be something special
For someone
Like a complicated lie,
And fasten a new skin around it
As if I were dressing an orange
Or a strange sun.
Not that it was beautiful,
But that I found some order there.
There ought to be something special
For someone
In this kind of hope.
This is something I would never find
In a lovelier place, my dear,
Although your fear is anyoneās fear,
Like an invisible veil between us allā¦
And sometimes in private,
My kitchen, your kitchen,
My face, your face.
This is something I would never find
In a lovelier place, my dear,
Although your fear is anyoneās fear,
Like an invisible veil between us allā¦
And sometimes in private,
My kitchen, your kitchen,
My face, your face.
Ā© Advocate Magazine
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